Hair Politics - Totally baffling

<#D@,$ b` 0

Some people think of hair (and treat it thusly) primarily as fashion. No doubt this perception has been counseled by fashion enterprises who seek to exploit this perception for their own gain.

My opinion: Innately for men, however, women's hair is viewed as an object of beauty, so while nearly all men would fail to notice a woman's new shoes or whatever, they're far more likely to notice changes women make to their hair.

[edited first quote to provide proper context to my comment]

DaveDecker2006-07-02 12:29:21

Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: Jul 1, 2006 at 2:00pm

$"`` ( @$ $` !

How do you know that the referenced survey wasn't conducted using well-established polling principles? Might your dismissal of the referenced survey be based on it's disagreement with your preference? Do you similarly disregard the validity of other such polls (not related to hair)? Or only those with which you disagree?

! `"$ @$ (`` !

Unless of course such preferences are innate. Other scientific studies have been done which support the definition of attraction you mention, because these features are indicative of health and fecundity.

<#D@, @ !

I just see confidence and independence as having the courage to do what you want. I know many confident and independent women with long hair. I don't see their decision to have long hair as a sign of weakness.

Posted By: Longhairdreams
Date Posted: Jul 1, 2006 at 10:18pm

Interesting topic.

But I have to agree with kuroneko.I know very few short haired women.I very rarely ever see any women around here with short hair.

But It also seems to be true that most men(but not all) prefer long hair.

I also agree with merlin about being force fed the idea about the ideal woman. Its true that studies prove this to be a sign of fertility.But it also sends an unhealthy message to girls who are fine trying to live up this standard because its the ideal image.

This is one of the reasons that plastic surgery has become so prevalent.Its obviously not to be more fertile.

Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: Jul 2, 2006 at 12:32pm

Hi LHD,

Of course plastic surgery does not affect fertility at all. But such surgery done to appear more "average" (closer to normal - i.e., beautiful) is done to give the appearance of better health (and indirectly, fertility).

That said, I'm not a fan of plastic surgery, unless it is used to correct something obviously amiss. Unfortunately these days, it seems, nearly all plastic surgery is not warranted (IMHO).

Posted By: PurpleBubba
Date Posted: Jul 2, 2006 at 1:34pm

I just wanted to say that although a lot of plastic surgery isn't needed it does serve a purpose that may not be seen at first glance.

I was born with a facial defect called cleft lip and cleft palate. My parents did not have the kind of money it would have taken to fix this. They found a doctor who told them "Don't worry about it. I make my money off of old ladies."

I'm just giving the quote that my mom told me he said. No offense meant to anyone who considers themself old.

There are many doctors who do similar things. Many of them travel to other countries to perform plastic surgery on people who have no access to surgery.

Unfortunately my doctor died in a plane crash in the late 80's. Meaning it's unfortunate that he's no longer around to help others.
PurpleBubba2006-07-02 13:55:21

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 2, 2006 at 9:00pm

[QUOTE=DaveDecker] Unless of course such preferences are innate.[/quote]

That's a great point. Think about teeth. Before modern dentistry, people who tended to have whiter, healthier teeth (and all of them!) were younger people. Therefore, good teeth were a sign of not just youth, but good health. Even today, if you look at the hair of people in their 80s, it can (but is not always the case of course) be very thin and just won't grow much. Therefore, a woman with thick, long hair isn't just a sign of beauty but also of health. Same with figures, being extremely overweight or underweight is not healthy, so those figures aren't just seen in terms of beauty but are seen in terms of health. I'll be the first to argue that the Kate Moss chain-smoking figures are not only unhealthy, but not very attractive, and fortunately, I've never known a man who would prefer a skinny, unhealthy woman over a healthy woman with toned muscles and a healthy level of fat.

[quote]I just see confidence and independence as having the courage to do what you want. I know many confident and independent women with long hair. I don't see their decision to have long hair as a sign of weakness.[/quote]

Exactly! Stylists generally encourage us to cut off our hair. Magazine articles that talk about new hairstyles almost always talk about cutting it off. It's the norm. And, very sad to say, I nearly caved into pressure myself and cut my hair short. However, the decision would have been the opposite of independent and confident. I would have just been following the crowd. So many articles that talk about hair rarely talk about growing it longer. They talk about "getting rid of the long hair." It seems to me that independent and confident is about going against society.

In the 1920s, I would argue that the more confident and independent women cut their hair short. But then, short hair became the norm in almost every decade, bar the 1960s. (Maybe the word "short" should be defined. If someone means that short hair is like a guy's butch cut with almost nothing to comb, then yes, the majority of women don't have such severe styles.)

Cutting the hair is physically very easy and can happen in a matter of minutes. To grow hair longer takes a lot of time and patience. (I'm not talking about the mental decision to cut or grow, only the physical action) It just seems to me that a confident woman is one who not only goes against the pressures of society but also one who takes the dedication and patience it requires to cut hair short. I've read so many times that women who want to grow their hair just get so frustrated at the in-between styles that they just end up cutting it off. I'm not criticizing that decision at all, but how that makes a woman more confident and independent is really the root of my question. The statement seems a bit hypocritical since it's long hair that defies the rules of society. For every Portia deRossi (sp?) or Jane Seymour, there are millions of Alyssa Milanos and Sharon Stones (with regard to hair length).

The statement that short haired women are more confident and independent just seems to be propaganda since I can find no supporting evidence at all and when, in fact, long hair, especially very long hair, in western society is in the minority. I think we should encourage everyone, both male and female, to wear their hair in whatever style and length THEY want.

Now, for guys with long hair, no question whatsoever. Society says short hair for guys, so someone like Dave Decker is definitely going against the grain! If he weren't confident of his decision, he'd be standing in line at the barber shop just like most guys. (And I'm not trying to insult guys with short hair. I love a variety of styles on both men and women. ) What I really rebel against is others pressuring you to do what they think you should do. If I wanted short hair and others were pressuring me to grow it long (which rarely happens; I even asked about it on the short hair forum), I'd be just as indignant!

0- Ai

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 2, 2006 at 9:13pm

Here's a quote from Lem0605 to a post entitled "Should I go this short?" in the short hair forum:

[quote]GO SHORT!! It's the thing to do for the summer.. look at all of the celebs going short.[/quote]

So, is the confident woman doing what she wants or going short because it's the thing to do for the summer and all the celebs are going short?

That's exactly the kind of comments that many long-haired people get. When was the last time someone asked how long she should grow her hair and received the reply, "GO LONG!! It's the thing to do for winter.. look at all the celebs going long."?

I can only conclude that the mere act of cutting hair short has no more or less to do with confident and independence than a woman growing her hair long against the norms of society.

0- Ai

Posted By: Kuroneko
Date Posted: Jul 4, 2006 at 11:34pm

The statement was largely anecdotal, based on women I've spoken to, both online and off. Unfortunately, that means I have no studies on hand to cite. I'm sure many other short-haired women have been approached by long-haired women who said they liked short hair but didn't think their boyfriends/husbands would approve, or didn't think they could get dates that way.

I must've been living around a lot of unobservant males all my life, then ^_^; . In my experience, it's been women who notice and comment at even the slightest hair change. By the time most males notice I've made one hair change, I'm already pretty much over that style and ready to move on to the next!

T@%@ $$DabHA

How do you know this to be true? You state it as fact, without any support. I rather believe most of the women wearing their hair long have it long because they like it, and prefer it to short... but then notice how I've stated this -- as an opinion.

<#D@,$ b` 0

Some people think of hair (and treat it thusly) primarily as fashion. No doubt this perception has been counseled by fashion enterprises who seek to exploit this perception for their own gain.

[edited first quote to provide proper context to my comment]

[/QUOTE] ! % Aaebade d !, ` . 4``

Posted By: Merlin101
Date Posted: Jul 6, 2006 at 2:48pm

The University study referred to earlier is flawed in multiple ways as I am sure Dave researched and knows. Selecting 50 men from a controlled group is not scientific. Having only 6 choices of hair style is also not scientific. This study only supports my argument to ignore polls. Not all women are attractive with short hair. I think we all can agree on this. Courtney Thorne-Smith is a perfect example of someone whom should never again sport short hair. Is it conceivable that the directors of the FSU-Panama City study wanted an outcome that "proved" men prefer long dark hair? Maybe. One way of doing this is to have pictures of a very unbecoming lady sporting various hairstyles and then having attractive women with long hairstyles, while asking men for their preference. I spent 3 years studying Psychology, Sociology, and Anthropology before leaving college behind to focus on music. I know a thing or two about polls. Enough on that subject.

And yes Dave, I disagree with all polls. See above for rationale.

Now to use a little anthropology education. During the course of human evolution, perceptions as to attractive, healthiness and fertility have changed with culture. That's right...CULTURE. Some cultures over time held that overweight women and men were more attractive, as this meant they could afford food. Other cultures including Europe in the Middle Ages held that only the fairest of skin was a sign of health. In the South Pacific, women with facial tatoos are considered a thing of beauty. Ancient Egypt felt men and women with no hair at all were the most attractive. It is a cultural evolution that brings us today to believe women with long hair, an hourglass figure and a healthy tan are the most beautiful. Please check out beauty pagents. Virtually all women have long locks and all have that "Barbie Doll" figure.

As for confidence, it is my opinion, that women with short hair are bold and confident. This is a general statement and my general belief. It is shared by the marketing companies of big business. Witness, TV commercial for Ban Rollon, woman getting hair cut shorter and shorter while verbally saying, "nervous is getting your hair cut...and cut...and cut..". If this is not a bold move, why be nervous? Act II, Ford commercial with lady shaving her head. The tagline Ford uses(or their marketing agent). BOLD. Can all these marketing giants be wrong? Possibly, if they used polls to make these judgements.

To Anne6000, I think we have different understandings of short or long hair. If long is defined as mid-back or longer and short is everything else, I concur with you that society currently prefers short hair. Personally, I consider hair past the shoulders as long, hair close to shoulder length as medium and hair off the shoulder as short. Using my definition, and your suggestion, I conducted a study(not scientific albeit) over the last week. I visited two grocery stores, two malls, one strip club, three Hooters restaurants and one baseball game with my son. I strived to estimate the ages of those counted to only include women between 20-50, as you stated most teenage girls prefer long hair. This study covered one small town, Charleston, SC and Jacksonville, FL. Conclusions with my definitions:

64% Long(7% Mid-Back or Below)

25% Medium

11% Short(3% Short Crop)

My assumption of your definition of Long=Mid Back and Below:

93% Short

7% Long

We both win. Additionally, I have new material and a great video concept. Keep watching FUSE and you just might find out the secrets of Merlin.

P.S. To me, a woman of beauty is petite, blonde (usually short) with color highlights, tasteful tattoos, body piercings (not facial) and one killer-kick butt/take no prisoner attitude. One confident to do what she wants and ask no one for their opinion. Bra size doesn't matter, but being a compassionate caring mother to my kid does.

Keep Rockin, looking to the future and never waste a moment lamenting about the past!!!

!! `abadq a ,(40` )2$`b /4$ -$ %$, ,%$ `` .$

Posted By: Merlin101
Date Posted: Jul 6, 2006 at 3:29pm

Check out this picture of Ms. Kline.

She is the researcher that conducted the study that Dave refers to above. Maybe she was looking for a particular conclusion when she conducted her research. Her conclusion as read from the link that Dave provided was that women and men prefer women with long dark hair.

Is it coincidence that she has long dark hair??? Decide for yourself after checking out her picture.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/kkline.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/kkline.dp.html&h=211&w=140&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=c--wt9V5slynfM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522kelley%2Bkline%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Polls are useless.

!! `abadq a ,(40` )2$`b /4$ -$ %$, ,%$ `` .$

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 6, 2006 at 4:41pm

# `$ #$@ (`` !

It sounds like your personal preference is a tough little dominatrix biker babe. Variety is what makes the world go round.

anne60002006-07-06 18:48:340- Ai

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 6, 2006 at 4:56pm

[QUOTE=Merlin101]Check out this picture of Ms. Kline.[/quote]

She's gorgeous!

Yes, every woman with long hair is out to get out, Merlin, especially those confidant, bold, educated women with Ph.Ds.

You're really being a bit paranoid now. If she were the owner of a hair products company, I'd be the first to agree with you. But she's a researcher at a university. You don't like the results, and you'll nit-pick with completely inconsequential items to try to talk yourself into believing that the poll is completely invalid.

You seem to be trying to convince everyone (maybe yourself?) that long hair is not attractive and short hair women are these rare and elusive birds that men secretly crave.

I truly like to see a variety of hairstyles on women (not bald, though) and my original question had nothing to do with trying to "prove" that long haired women are somehow more superior (which I don't believe at all) to other women. However, you've kind of turned the discussion into that, unfortunately. There's nothing at all wrong with anyone preferring short hair on women, but I think it's wrong for society to present such propaganda (even misleading) to women to cut it short. Lots of companies and businesses benefit when women cut their hair short, so it's to their benefit to try to talk women into cutting off and keeping off their long hair.

0- Ai

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 6, 2006 at 5:40pm

Edit, an earlier edited post appeared here as a new post, I have no idea how I did that.

anne60002006-07-06 17:50:260- Ai

Posted By: enfys
Date Posted: Jul 7, 2006 at 8:27am

Dear me, this is geting intersting now.

I'm in the UK, I've not seen those car ads and have no desire to either. Oddly, most of our ads focus on the cars, not odd little fetishes.

I also have no idea what Hooters is, but their homepage told me that they do swimsuit pageants, sell dvds and do a calendar of skantily clad women. No, I wouldn't say this was unbiased.

Merlin, you have a painfully biased sample. The original study had 50 (a moderate sized sample) men and six variations. This would be accepted as scientific. Also, they used the same woman for three of the pictures, making hers a control face - the only variation was her hairstyle.

I studied psychology too.

$- P cn`dp0% 00BB .(4`p /.%%%,-)! !!%,!,`" !,

Posted By: Merlin101
Date Posted: Jul 7, 2006 at 8:54am

I feel brutally attacked by now. I don't think I have attempted to convince anyone to do anything or think in any way. I simply participated in what I believed to be an open discussion. The woman I spent last night with had long blonde hair, shoulder blade length. I didn't request her to get a haircut or even believe she would look better with short hair. Why does Anne feel the need to attack me and form opinions of me? Maybe she is the one who is insecure and paranoid of her appearance and is trying to convince the world to grow out their hair to be like her. Maybe people who see her honestly think she would look better with shorter hair. Some women do. Notice here, SOME WOMEN, not ALL.

As for the theory that hairstylist are biased due to the almighty $$$, I suppose they never made money off the beehive, perming, coloring,or by selling lots of shampoo, conditioners and other products to maintain long locks. How about brushes and blow dryers? Seems money is made off of long hair just as much as short hair.

She states in her original post,

"However, in practice, think about the vast majority of women you see in public places like grocery stores, doctor's offices, driver's license places, and things like that. What length of hair do the majority of women (at least in the US) have? I've traveled the US from each coast and have been to many places. Completely objectively, I can say that the vast majority of women (not counting teenage girls, who do tend to have longer hair) have hair above collar length. Short hair IS the norm in society. I'm not criticizing that, but I'm just making an observation."

Yet no one else on this thread has agreed with her.

She agrees with my observation on what constitutes long hair. Yet, per the results of my informal survey, long hair clearly is dominate in U.S. Culture. She offers grocery stores as a public place to prove her theory, but the grocery stores I surveyed had the second smallest percentage of short haired women, only behind Hooters. The strip club had the largest percentage of short haired women, completely devastating her theory. I never provided a breakdown of the numbers in the former post, yet Anne6000 assumed Hooters and the strip club were dominated by long haired women. Sorry, Hooters yes, strip club, no.

Ask an accountant, "What is two plus two?", and a good one will tell you, "What do you want it to be?". Pollsters are the same. Sorry, but that is just the way the world works.

As for time wasted to nit-pik and prove a point. Not at all, this is what I do for creative ideas. I post on boards of various topics all over the net. I observe socialogical tendancies. This is why my music and lyrics have meaning and depth. I am not out to prove any point at all, just observe. I only disagreed with Anne6000's opinion that U.S. culture is dominated, coast to coast, with short hairstyles for women. I still disagree, only more confidently due to my research.

This will be my last post on this thread as I don't tend to be argumentative and I feel this thread has definitely turned in that direction. Sorry Anne6000.

!! `abadq a ,(40` )2$`b /4$ -$ %$, ,%$ `` .$

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 7, 2006 at 10:43am

Hi enfys,

!p`(,$ `.$ ` b`

Hooters is a restaurant where the women are almost exclusively large-breasted and wear tight tops, and according to Merlin's informal study, most have long hair in his local chain. Again, the reason is obvious: most guys prefer long hair on women! I have nothing against the place, but there isn't one near where I live. It is definitely a specialty restaurant, so you're right, it is highly biased.

Excuse me now, please, because I have to run a few errands like everyone else, you know, so I thought I'd take the kids and stop in at my local strip club and then off to lunch at Hooter's. I'll probably run into lots of friends and neighbors there, of course.

In all seriousness, Merlin, I wasn't trying to attack you at all, but what you said simply didn't make sense. If you personally find short haired women more confidant and bold, I can't argue with your personal preferences. What I was at first seeking was the logical argument behind it, and there doesn't appear to be one. Since you prefer short hair on women, it would be logical for you to think those women are in short supply.

Earlier, Merlin, you were seriously questioning the possible bias of the university study but didn't provide any evidence that the university would benefit from finding that men preferred long hair on women. Yet, you included in your informal study (and you wanted to prove that long hair was the norm) you went to places where I think most of us would be surprised if short hair were the norm! That bias for the places you chose was very clear. It would be like my going to a senior citizen's center and claiming that the majority of women have short hair -- of course they do in that particular place. Same with a strip club and Hooter's, only with long hair being the norm. Because......that's what guys prefer, and those places cater predominantly to men.

Taking a look at hairstyle magazines in a salon, you'll find that the vast majority of styles and cuts are short. If most women had long hair, the business side of the magazines would dictate that they cater to the majority of their paying clients and the trends would reflect that long hair and show more long hair styles. Either that, or they're, once again providing pressure for women to cut their hair by not offering many other alternatives than short styles.

anne60002006-07-07 10:50:140- Ai

Posted By: SanFranBrent
Date Posted: Jul 9, 2006 at 12:57am

Of the men I know;
The majority of men under 25 seem to like long hair on women.
The majority of men over 25 seem to like short hairstyles on women.

Most of the men I know have wives or ladyfriends who have short hairstyles, and they seem to like those short hairstyles on their wives or ladyfriends. Most of the men I know are over the age of 25, which might explain why they prefer short hairstyles on their women.

But I am sure it varies from one man to another, regardless of the man's age. Different men like different hair lengths and hairstyles on beautiful women. Which is very good I believe.

I believe that many men and women associate long hair on women with a "girly" look (unless they wear it up in a bun or an updo), and short, fashionable hairstyles on women as more "professional" or "grown up".
I believe that is why the majority of women over the age of 25 wear short hairstyles, or somewhat short hairstyles.
However this is a generalization. There are obviously many exceptions to this.

Some people also associate long hair on women over the age of 25 with "bimboism". But that usually only applies to women who wear their long hair "puffed up" in the "big hair" style.

I know that many people associate short, chic, fashionable hairstyles on women with professionalism, intelligence, urbanity, being well-educated, and being fashionable. Short hair is more associated with the modern, liberated, metropolitan, cosmopolitan woman. Long hair more with the old fashioned, rural woman.

As I stated, this is a generalization, but you could take your average 35 year old working woman, or housewife with two kids, who lives in a major metropolitan area, and the chances are she has a short hairstyle.
This same 35 year old working woman or housewife with two kids who lives in the rural south or the rural midwest would be more inclined to have long hair or "big hair", than the woman living in Chicago, New York City, San Francisco or some of the other major metropolitan areas.
There are of course, many exceptions to this, and it isn't good to generalize too much on this topic.

To me it is irrelevant whether long hair or short hair is more popular in urban or rural areas. People should wear their hair how they enjoy wearing it, whether they are 25, 31, 46, or 58 years old!. Just be yourself, and enjoy wearing your hair how you like to wear it! Geography and age shouldn't matter. Wear your hair how you like to wear your hair!

I personally, usually, prefer short hairstyles on women. My ex wife, and most of the women I have been with, have worn short hairstyles.

I believe though that people are individuals, and that both men and women should wear their hair whatever length they like.
But as I stated, I could care less what style is the most popular.
You shouldn't wear your hair a certain length or style, just because you believe that length or style is the most popular. You should wear what you enjoy wearing and what looks good on you.

There are huge numbers of women these days who wear short, chin length, bob cuts. Does that mean that every woman should wear a short bob hairstyle? What if the woman wants to wear ultra-long hair? Or the woman wants to wear an ultra-short pixie hairstyle? Plenty of ladies wear those hairstyles also, and look feminine and very beautiful in those hairstyles!

I also believe that it is important to be yourself. If you are a man or a woman that loves wearing ultra-long hair, then wear it!
The same thing with short hair, even ultra-short hair on women!

Thank goodness we are living in a free society, in a day and age, where people, both men and women, can wear their hair however they like.

And don't worry about whether your hairstyle is attractive or not to others. If you are a woman who wears long hair, many men will be attracted to you.
If you are a woman who wears a short hairstyle, many men will also be attracted to you.
There are plenty of men who like both on women.
The same with women regarding men. There are many women who like both short hair, or long hair, on men.

Also, there is much more than hair length, or the style of hair, that makes men and women attracted to each other.
What attracts me to a woman is not only her hairstyle, but her face, her body, how she dresses, her makeup, earrings and jewelry, her personality, her intelligence, her kindness, her interests, all of that.

p.s. - The idiots of the world go to Hooters. Junk food, junk women.
Yes, the waitresses there have lovely big boobs, but many (not all) of the women there are idiots, and the men (many of them) that go there are often even more idiotic than the women are.
It is a perfect example of the dumbing down of America. Too big of portions of junk food served by idiotic big breasted, big haired women, serving the food to stupid, obese drunken men.
For those people with intelligence and class it is much better for a man to take out his beautiful lady to a nice resturaunt or dinner club, get some good food and drink, and enjoy a more intelligent and classy place. There are even places that are very affordable that have more class, that would be a better place to take a lady.
And if a guy is out on the town with his buddies, a classy nightclub, or even certain classy strip joints might be better. Often better looking women at the nightclubs or strip clubs also.
SanFranBrent2006-07-09 03:27:47 %,

Posted By: Kuroneko
Date Posted: Jul 9, 2006 at 4:22am

What are the titles of those magazines? It seems like every time I'm looking for new hairstyle ideas, even if I pick up a specifically short hair mag, like half the pages are full of shoulder-length hair instead :-P . It feels like a waste of money to spend $5-6 on a magazine and get maybe a handful of usable pictures.

<#D@, 4 0 ! % Aaebade d !, ` . 4``

Posted By: SanFranBrent
Date Posted: Jul 9, 2006 at 6:50am

Kuroneko,
Short hair on women in so-called "mainstream" fashion magazines means anything from a short pixie to shoulder length hair, or anything in between, (even though shoulder length hair is actually medium length hair on modern women these days, if you look at women in everyday society). SanFranBrent2006-07-09 06:52:36 %,

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 9, 2006 at 9:17pm

Hi Brent,

It's interesting how this discussion veered off in another direction!

[QUOTE=SanFranBrent] I believe that many men and women associate long hair on women with a "girly" look (unless they wear it up in a bun or an updo), and short, fashionable hairstyles on women as more "professional" or "grown up".[/quote]

Do you think that hair, just because of its short length is automatically "fashionable"?

If not, what is "unfashionable" short hair?

Many women with short hair do like to follow the latest trends. The only problem is that after awhile they can tend to blend in together in a crowd. I rarely see women with ultra long hair, but when I do, they turn heads in every direction!

I also think that many men and women associate long hair on women as very sophisticated and short hair as something that is simple and mainstream.

[quote]Some people also associate long hair on women over the age of 25 with "bimboism". But that usually only applies to women who wear their long hair "puffed up" in the "big hair" style.[/quote]

I agree with really big, puffed up hair as being rather bimbo-like. I don't care for it at all. Sometimes women with short hair try to do the same even with as little as they have!

[quote]As I stated, this is a generalization, but you could take your average 35 year old working woman, or housewife with two kids, who lives in a major metropolitan area, and the chances are she has a short hairstyle.
This same 35 year old working woman or housewife with two kids who lives in the rural south or the rural midwest would be more inclined to have long hair or "big hair", than the woman living in Chicago, New York City, San Francisco or some of the other major metropolitan areas.
There are of course, many exceptions to this, and it isn't good to generalize too much on this topic.[/quote]

I think to think the opposite -- the cities have the women with the long, sophisticated and elegant styles and the rural women have the simple, short hair. I do live in the rural midwestern, and I see many, many more women with short, easy hair than with longer locks.

[quote]I personally, usually, prefer short hairstyles on women. My ex wife, and most of the women I have been with, have worn short hairstyles.[/quote]

Maybe this is too personal of a question (and I apologize if it is), but since you're growing your hair long, do you like to see somewhat of a reversal of traditional sex roles?

[quote]What attracts me to a woman is not only her hairstyle, but her face, her body, how she dresses, her makeup, earrings and jewelry, her personality, her intelligence, her kindness, her interests, all of that.[/quote]

I never thought many men cared a great deal about make-up or jewelry on a woman. I think one thing that would scare me about wearing short hair is that I'd always have to wear lots of make-up and jewelry and dress up to really look feminine. In all the pictures I've seen of short haired women, they are always made up. It would be interesting to take away all the accessories and look at women and their hair.

[quote]Too big of portions of junk food served by idiotic big breasted, big haired women, serving the food to stupid, obese drunken men.[/quote]

LOL! I'm glad you said that.

0- Ai

Posted By: SanFranBrent
Date Posted: Jul 9, 2006 at 10:36pm

Anne,
Obviously there are sophisticated women who live in major metros who have both long hair and short hairstyles, and there are short hairstyles on women as well as long haired women in rural areas. I was making a generalized statement.
As I stated, it isn't good to generalize too much on this.
Generally though, short, sophisticated hairstyles are worn by many women in the major metro areas and are considered cosmopolitan and fashionable.

I am glad you got a chuckle out of my Hooters statement.

SanFranBrent2006-07-09 22:37:27 %,

Posted By: noleftturn
Date Posted: Jul 10, 2006 at 3:14pm

Anne,

No matter what you are told, choose a style and length that you like. When you are comfortable with yourself, others will be comfortable with you.

Dave addressed a study on preference that would indicate people prefer longer hair on women. Some years earlier Physique commissioned a study conducted by Yale University on perceptions. Perceptions and preferences are two different subjects.

The Yale study concluded women with short hair are PERCEIVED as more outgoing and confident, while women with long hair are perceived as sexy and affluent, and women with medium hair as intelligent and good-natured. (http://www.physique.com/usa/sn/sn_yale-study2.asp)

It is not unusual for people to dress to shape the perceptions of others, so it wouldn't be unusual for people to choose a hair length or style the same way.

What neither study presents is an accurate capsule of how women with differing hair lengths see themselves. Not all women with long hair are affluent (in my area most women with very long hair are also very poor). Conversely, some women with very long hair are affluent, confident, and successful. There is no study of actual common traits women with various hair lengths or styles may share. Studies thus far are concentrated on the preferences and perceptions of others.

Be comfortable with your choice and people will accept it.

Posted By: SanFranBrent
Date Posted: Jul 10, 2006 at 7:13pm

I agree, pick a style that you are comfortable with.

You could do twenty different studies on hairstyle preferences on women and get twenty different results.

The studies are irrelevant anyway. Studies are just academic. You don't live with a study, you live with yourself.
What really matters is what hairstyle you like on yourself (and if you have one, what hairstyle your significant other likes on you).
SanFranBrent2006-07-10 19:15:22 %,

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 10, 2006 at 7:21pm

`` % @ (`a`@`

I think most agree. However, there are some stylists and others who seem to want to suggest, sometimes obviously and sometimes not, that we'd look better in another hairstyle. If someone is asking for opinions, then the opinions should be welcomed, even if they don't agree with what the person him or herself really thinks.

The problem, at least for me, is when people "suggest" that I should cut my hair shorter when I haven't asked for an opinion. When I went for hair consultations, I should expect honest opinions, no matter what they are. But all the subtle hints and even less subtle hints when I haven't asked for them are not appreciated (it hasn't happened here on the forum, but with people I know in real life). I'd also say the very same thing for someone with short hair who receives unwanted suggestions that they grow their hair longer.

0- Ai

Posted By: noleftturn
Date Posted: Jul 10, 2006 at 11:12pm

$"`` ( 4 0

Tell the person offering the opinons, hints, suggestions "I would, but then when people see us together the problem with your ( insert one: nose, ears, teeth, neck, choice of attire ) will be more obvisious. Then smile and walk away. (PS ... my choice would be nose since they are sticking it where it's not wanted.)

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 11, 2006 at 11:40pm

$"`` ($`, $`` ``"

LOL! May I quote you on this?

Despite the fact that I don't have short hair, I think I'm growing more confident by the day. Thanks very much.

0- Ai

Posted By: noleftturn
Date Posted: Jul 13, 2006 at 12:54am

<@@. &, 0

Quote me if you please

You used the magic word, confident! I've known women with extremely long hair to no hair that were confident. It's an attribute I profoundly respect in women. Not all men (or even women) appreciate a confident woman. I can understand why people perceive women with short hair as having confidence, as it seems something only a confident woman would do. But again, I've known women with every conceivable length of hair that had confidence, or lacked it. You are on the right track, and eventually people will see you as confident regardless of your hair length or style.

Posted By: DaveDecker
Date Posted: Jul 15, 2006 at 3:31pm

!p`($% `($ $ 4

Me too...

Posted By: auramae
Date Posted: Jul 16, 2006 at 1:41am

Wow! This is one heckofa thread! I had no idea people could get so worked up over hair length! I guess maybe it is regional to some degree. I have lived in the pacific northwest for the last twenty or so years and maybe we're just too laid back to care. Long, short, brown, blonde, mohawk, green...whatever works for you. We do see less "big hair" here, maybe because of the rain or because of our "active, outdoor lifestyles." The goal here seems to be "low-maintenance."
auramae2006-07-16 10:26:25!$ Cie @`ara ) , ` !(0`r #2% %! %!! ) 4`b &

Posted By: browneyedgirl83
Date Posted: Jul 24, 2006 at 3:29pm

I have always had long hair. I am a casual person, and being that my long hair air dries completely straight, therefore looking "done"... it is convenient.

I think next week I am going to cut it... short for me... a bob, above the shoulder for sure. Why?

Because, generally speaking, I am an adventurous person. I like to try new food, new drinks, new things, and visit new places. My hair has been every length between below my shoulders and the bottom of my jeans pockets. It has been layered, dyed black, I've used pink hair mascara, and had highlights (loooongasp time ago). It always reverts to mid-back to waist length and my natural brown, as i am sure it will after this cut.

I just want to try something new... like I've been doing... I'm just going shorter.
I won't be any more assertive, outgoing, or any other personality aspect... just like I don't think I was any less of an adventurous person when all my hair experimentation occured at the below the shoulder lenght.

Does it JUST SO HAPPEN that I am graduating college and I might look a little more professional? Sure. Will my mom probably not like it? Sure.. but she sure didn't like my hair pitch black either...
Does it turn out that my boyfriend DOES like the idea of shorter hair (yup... that was a surprise..)... will that stop me from growing it down to my rear end again... nope.. absolutely not...

Am I nervous about cutting off almost a foot of hair.. HELL YES... I am VAIN... I'll love it if it looks good, hate it if it doesn't...

Just like I hated my hair being black until I went to the tanning bed, and no longer looked like Morticia Aadams.. then I loved it! (Boy did waist length black hair make my shower dirty... I woudl never do THAT again for that reason...)browneyedgirl832006-07-24 15:30:01

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 24, 2006 at 6:08pm

[QUOTE=browneyedgirl83]I won't be any more assertive, outgoing, or any other personality aspect... just like I don't think I was any less of an adventurous person when all my hair experimentation occured at the below the shoulder lenght.[/quote]

Thanks, browneyedgirl. It's great that guys love a variety of lengths on a woman, from very short to very long! However, saying that one length somehow makes the woman more daring or confident is just silly. The personality is what makes a person who she is, not her hair length.

0- Ai

Posted By: Bob S
Date Posted: Jul 29, 2006 at 12:00pm

Anne, fascinating discussion! As for me, I have *never* seen an improvement when a woman with gorgeous long hair cuts it. If the hair is sloppy, that's another matter. But hair length does add to femininity, IMO. I enjoy seeing a woman's facial features and neck also, and that's what makes some short cuts attractive, but hair worn up does the trick also. And..., hair that's *up*, must (or has the potential to) come down!

When my wife had short hair eight years ago, she wore rouge and lipstick on occasion. *Now*, there's *really* no need. And she's 46 now! Whoever said that most men prefer short haircuts on women is lying or misinformed! You should hear some of the short-haired gals I work with talk about their complaining husbands!

Best, Bob

Posted By: phil
Date Posted: Jul 29, 2006 at 2:43pm

I often wonder if a bit of "reverse psychology" is at work here. Tradition has it that women always look better with long hair. This rang true throughout the ages, and it wasn't until the 1920s A.D. (Eton Crop) that anyone even considered that a woman could style her hair any other way. Long hair came to define femininty. Which is precisely why those who take the conscious decision to fly in the face of tradition and truncate their most prized asset, are in my opinion so attractive. But if it weren't for the fact that, yes, long haired women are nicer to look at, the novelty value in cutting at off would not exist. Even now, if short-haired women are in the majority, the fact remains they have still chosen that style contrary to a popular wisdom that stood for centuries, and for that I think they should be admired. IMO the cropped girl is the independent, free thinking, empowered one, and that is something to be encouraged. 0 ),

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 29, 2006 at 10:04pm

[QUOTE=phil]But if it weren't for the fact that, yes, long haired women are nicer to look at[/quote]

Since you said you are attracted to women with shorter hair I am (pleasantly) surprised at your statement.

[quote]Even now, if short-haired women are in the majority, the fact remains they have still chosen that style contrary to a popular wisdom that stood for centuries, and for that I think they should be admired.[/quote]

So, the key for you is an appearance that is contrary to history, regardless of today's fashions. For the past thousand years, it was convention that women wore only dresses. One might argue that dresses are more formal than slacks, but finding a woman wearing slacks in western society is very easy to do. Yet, with your argument, since dresses were the feminine ideal for centuries and centuries, the woman wearing slacks today is somehow more independent, free thinking and empowered than a woman who wears a dress. How is it admirable that a woman dresses against how women have dressed for centuries? That's like saying an average woman of today who is literate should be admired because she's going against the convention that for centuries, all but the wealthiest of women were not educated. I don't see the logic of admiring a quality or behavior that is very commonplace today just because it was rare in much of history.

[quote]IMO the cropped girl is the independent, free thinking, empowered one[/quote]

By definition, independence is seen as doing your own thing, free from the influence of others. The problem with linking short hair with independence today is that short hair is very much the norm. Therefore, cutting your hair short is just following the dictates of the majority of women and being influenced and submitting to the popular culture of short hair, quite the opposite of independence.

If you're following the crowd, then you're not independent.

anne60002006-07-29 22:20:510- Ai

Posted By: phil
Date Posted: Jul 30, 2006 at 6:50am

I see what you are saying, but fear you may have missed my point. It isn't just opposing centuries of convertion per se that I find attractive in a person. You mentioned literacy - well of course I'd rather be with a literate, well educated woman than one who illustrated the downtrodden wrongs of yesteryear. You gave dresses as another example - let's call it the "dresses versus tresses" debate - there is one big difference. Where a dress can be replaced at a whim, a short haircut is a statement which has to be lived with for weeks, maybe months. Clothes fashion is a statement, sure, but can be changed at will if the appeal fades. It is the level of commitment required for short hair that I find appealing. The more severe, the bigger the commitment and level of inependence, etc. Maybe more women do have above collar length hair these days, but there still aren't enough shorn and buzzed women around. Well, not for me, anyway. 0 ),

Posted By: rhpetunia
Date Posted: Jul 30, 2006 at 10:35am

My post is based on my individual opinion based on my observations.

I agree with Dave that mens' attraction to women with long hair is visceral and innate. If an author of a novel is creating in image in the reader's mind of a gorgeous woman, is he/she more likely to say something like "She had auburn blonde hair cut to her ears, and her dress lay softly against her lovely curves" or something like "She had long, flowing auburn hair that cascaded against her lovely curves". The second conjures the desired image much more effectively in my opinion, though in both I have made an equal effort to present the image in a positive light.

Also, people have many reasons for choosing their mates, appearance being only one factor. One factor (out of many) is that some people may not target a mate that is "the best looking" for various reasons, and this can explain someone considering long hair to be better to look at, but still not desiring it in his/her mate.

I staunchly believe, like Dave, that men have a visceral, innate attraction to long, healthy hair. But in many cases I don't even think it's conscious -- they don't even think about what kind of hair they like. I can't really ask them, either, because I obviously have long hair and the responses would be biased, or it would make them uncomfortable. I know my husband agrees with me (y'know, "yes, dear").

For years I kept my hair a little past the shoulders and layered. I was careless with it, and it was often in poor condition. Late this past fall I turned over a new leaf and started taking care of it, and now it is healthy and at mid-back. I work in a predominantly male environment, and I have noticed differences in how I am treated, and I am observing that the hair catches the eye.

To me, it's undeniable. Men have an innate attraction to long, healthy hair. Not that it should change anyone's actions or preferences, but I believe it to be true.
0 - Ai

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 30, 2006 at 12:05pm

[QUOTE=phil]It is the level of commitment required for short hair that I find appealing.[/quote]

The concept of commitment doesn't fit here. There is a dependence on frequent salon trips, but when hair is short, limited possibilities exist on what to do with it, as opposed to taking care of very long hair. However, this isn't the same as your original argument.

One could accurate say that long hair requires commitment because it takes a long time to achieve. Short hair simply requires dependence on frequent haircuts.

If you personally attach a label of independence on short hair, there's nothing wrong with it. But logically, it doesn't make any sense.

[quote]The more severe, the bigger the commitment and level of inependence, etc.[/quote]

If a woman wants short hair, it's extremely easy to do. A few minutes with scissors and most of her hair is gone. However, having long hair requires the exact opposite: commitment and patience to grow it long. Dependence on frequent haircuts is anything but independent.

Being independent is going against the grain. Short hair is being one of the crowd (step into almost any salon!).

0- Ai

Posted By: Bob S
Date Posted: Jul 31, 2006 at 1:11pm

Hi Phil! You *admit* that women generally look more beautiful with long locks, so apparently you prefer them *less* feminine looking, or more "independent", as you say. That's fine with me. But although most guys seem to prefer flowing hair on women, I don't think that it is difficult in Western societies for a woman to wear cropped hair. Oh, the initial reaction of a woman going long to short may be negative from some men, but by the second or third cut, there's no problem at all.

In my view, it's the ladies who sport long locks who are the ones who have to bear the brunt of ridicule. (Not to mention guys!) Yes, my wife gets joked about regularly, mostly from family, and her hair is spectacular! Thus, *they* are the ones who need the resolve and commitment to succeed. Just one bad hair day may lead to a cut which forces short hair upon the recipient for a year, and medium length from two to three years.

There is nothing wrong with short cuts on women, but thank God for those who enjoy the ultimate femininity of unedited tresses! Best, Bob

Posted By: Merlin101
Date Posted: Jul 31, 2006 at 3:31pm

So, as I understand it, Dave Decker, Fabio and myself are ultimately feminine because we have long hair. Or is long hair only feminine on women? If so, thus maybe, being a woman is the ultimate femininity regardless of her hair length. Or maybe, since all humans are capable of having long hair, if not artificially shortened by the shears, we are all feminine as we are at conception. This topic is so intriguing. Where will it end? I think we should expand it to long vs short fingernails, natural or shaven legs/armpits, flabby abs or should women work out to be prettier/sexier.

Let's end this thread and just say everyone has a different opinion about what is prettier or sexier and that opinion may or may not be in agreement with current cultural norms. Thank God for diversity. Diversity is what makes it all go around.

!! `abadq a ,(40` )2$`b /4$ -$ %$, ,%$ `` .$

Posted By: anne6000
Date Posted: Jul 31, 2006 at 7:23pm

[QUOTE=Merlin101]So, as I understand it, Dave Decker, Fabio and myself are ultimately feminine because we have long hair.[/quote]

If you all have small waist-to-hip ratios, curvy legs, lovely rounded breasts, no Adam's apples, a higher overall fat percentage than men, higher octave voices, and soft and sweet facial features, then probably yes. However, I've see pictures of Dave and Fabio, and they look just as strong and masculine as Samson!

I have no reason to doubt that you join their company.

Obviously, this thread has driven about as straight down a focused path as Mel Gibson did last Thursday..

The aim was never to argue against people's preferences. It was to question the logic behind a woman being labeled as confident and daring because she cut her hair short in the year 2006 when in fact, what she is doing is simply following the majority of the crowd. She may not have cut her hair expressly to fit in with everyone else, but whatever her reason, she is much more the norm with the short hair. Which......make the original argument about standing apart from the crowd -- invalid.

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly about diversity!

0- Ai

Posted By: Kuroneko
Date Posted: Aug 12, 2006 at 3:40am

Of course, this topic was about what men find attractive on women. . . makes me wonder what one would find if they asked what men find attractive on men, or women on women. . . although I doubt the board's got a big enough gay contingent to support such a topic. *shrugs*! % Aaebade d !, ` . 4``

Posted By: Sharyg11
Date Posted: Aug 30, 2006 at 4:25pm

Wow! what an interesting thread. I never new such a topic would attrack so many people. I do have to disagree that just because Anne's stylist made the sugestion that men were more attracted to short haired women, that stylists in general do this because they want to make more money, since of course what they do is cut hair. I have never personally heard any stylist make that type of comment.

Personally I never had a stylist tell me such a thing. The only time my stylist told me, "you need to cut you hair", was after I had growned it really long, after a bad experience with TR. I new even before I got to the salon that she was going to say that, because eventhough I had been able to let it grow that long, it was really damaged and weakened from the TR. And even then, I said to her, "I know, but I'm not mentally prepared for it yet". She "OK, but start thinking about it, because the hair is really weak and damaged". So she didn't even insist or tried to put pressure on me, although it was evident that I needed to part with the hair. After about 2 minutes, I said, what the heck, I'm going to have to cut it eventually anyway, so go ahead. I ended up with a beautiful below the chin bob, that I ended up just loving, and everyone at work was going crazy over.

On another note, my stylist makes no money from me when my hair style is on the shorter side. When my hair is really long, I make alot more trips to the salon, because is harder for me to keep it beautiful on my own. It takes forever to blow dry and style. Plus I spend more on conditioners and special treatments and all that stuff. When my hair is on the shorter side I can easily take care of it myself, and will only go see my stylist when I need a trim.

I also don't agree that most women have short styles. Maybe that varies by city. But here in Miami long manes are everywhere and they rule.

About men preffering long hair, I have to agree that most of them do. At least the guys I asked about, always say they love long hair. But also have to agree that if the girl has her look together, she will get attention anyhow. Weather long or short.

I've had both really long hair, and chin length bobs and have gotten equal attention from guys. I have an ex-boyfriend who loved short hair. Not the pixie cut type, but the layered bob type. When I was with him I had really long hair, and regarless of his liking of short bobs, he was infatuated with my long hair, and loved the attention I would get from guys when we walked into a place together. Anytime he picked me up to go out, the first thing out of his mouth when I opened the door was, "wow, your hair looks beautiful. He was always talking about how much he loved it. And this is coming from a guy that wordshiped short hair. So I think is the whole attitude that counts. A woman who appers confident and has the right cut, weather short or long will have guys looking at her. I think as long as the cut is feminine, stylish, and sexy, (and on the right woman, not all women can get away with short hair) it will work. As long as is not those sure short pixies, I personally hate them. Although I have to admit that some women can pull it off, and look absolutly gorgeous with it. I personally can't go any shorter than a chin length bob. It just doesn't suit me.

I cut my hair into this really nice layered bob that I actually saw on a box of hair color. I had to beat guys off with a stick (exageration of course) but I was getting so much attention I couldn't believe it. However I realized some time later, that it wasn't the fact that the hair was short, but that particular hair cut itself that made me look so good. Because I tried cutting it again, this time in a different style, although similar in length and the results weren't near as great as with the first hair cut.

So eventhought I believe is true that most men are attrated to long hair, at the moment of truth, is the whole emsamble that will do the trick. And for the most part, I think is the real short hair that they find unattractive.

And as far as women go, go with what you feel and makes you happy at the moment, and most important what looks good on you and makes you feel attractive and confident. Because when you feel that way, guys will pick up that vibe, and ultimately, that is what really attracts them.

Posted By: SummerM
Date Posted: Sep 3, 2006 at 10:46am

First where salons are concerned, sometimes it is about money. The woman has to go back to the salon every 6 weeks or so to keep maintaining her short hair. Sometimes its locality, in some places short hair is the trend and thats what they are doing. Sometimes it is about age- some places have a mindset the older the client the shorter the hair.

Sometimes a stylist will tell the client to cut because of others issues that have nothing to do with hair- cattiness.

Where men are concerned, I think that is about the indivual and also the location. In Metro areas- I think those places or more trendy/cutting edge, but I don't think its superior over other places, just a different mind set.

For the most part, I think men know what they like- they have their preference no matter what others think. I don't agree with this "conditioned business" . There are men in this thread that prove it. If all men were conditioned to think a certain way, they would all be saying the same thing- nope, each one has their own like and viewpoint.

Some men have stated their preference in women and the "conditioned preference" wasn't among their preference.

Now that said, I think there is a mind set with some people about long hair vs short hair.Apparently to some long hair is "old fashioned" ( I don't even know what this means anymore) and rural. Well I don't think so, a woman in this thread talked about Florida have long haired women- they are not rural, California sports both long and short- so I don't see the *old fashioned/rural* connection here.

Another thing, long haired women I guess are not daring or modern. I'm 38 ,5'1 and I have long dark hair about waist/hip length, and I love punky colors. I have piercings and I'm working on a three tat design but I haven't started on them yet.

What exactly is daring/modern? Confidence isn't about how you look, its about what you can do and knowing who you are.

Am I against short hair- no. I have seen women that look stunning with short hair. I do have to say the big hair I have seen has been with short do's not long.

Where I am women of all ages have log and short hair, and there are alot of women here that have the short spikey hair.

Anne- The biker babe comment made me laugh. I look close to that except the short blonde hair and I have never been on a bike/ nor a bike rally and I live two hrs from Sturgis.

Hooters has long hair(sometimes) and big boobs ( sometimes) because the man that is the owner /operater likes it that way- period. Some of those res. may go by the personality of the town/state they live in to gain customers so making money.

Basically we are talking about going on a preconcieved idea of what "we" think is true based on our limited experience. Our outer appearance may have nothing to do with our lifestyle. Short hairs are this way/long hairs are that way- generalized which may or may not be true.

We are individuals, we think individual, there can be a million reasons why we look the way we do.

Last I put no credence in studies, most are slanted to favor the person that started the study. Unless started by a scientist and the study has fact- no emotions involved and involving more than a handful of people and then claiming "all men" , or"all this or that"- its skewed.

SummerM2006-09-03 10:49:35

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