Send a Private Message
To Username
  Find Member     
Subject
Message
 
Email Notify me when message is read
Search Topics
 
 
 

 Totally baffling

Author
Topic Search
Print
Translate
Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jun 15, 2006 at 9:57pm
One thing that I've constantly been told by people (especially stylists) is that men are more attracted to women with short  hair because the short hair defies the traditional definition of femininity, so that means that the woman is more confident and daring.  Although I don't agree, I suppose in theory, it may make sense.
 
However, in practice, think about the vast majority of women you see in public places like grocery stores, doctor's offices, driver's license places, and things like that.  What length of hair do the majority of women (at least in the US) have?  I've traveled the US from each coast and have been to many places.  Completely objectively, I can say that the vast majority of women (not counting teenage girls, who do tend to have longer hair) have hair above collar length.  Short hair IS the norm in society.  I'm not criticizing that, but I'm just making an observation.
 
So, how can people say that short hair makes a woman appear more daring and self-confident when not only do the majority of women have that short hair, but almost every guy I know seems to prefer long hair on women?
 
I know that the statement was said to me in an effort to convince me to cut my hair, but I've also read the same thing in various places about how men are attracted to women with short hair because of the "confident" factor.
 
Yet, I just do not see that at all.  Does anyone else? 
 
What prompted this post is that yesterday, I had a treat and had a manicure at a salon.  The manicurist, also a stylist, had short hair, not ultra short, but just regular short, like most women.  My appointment had nothing to do with hair, yet out of the blue she made the comment.  Why?  Was she envious of my longer hair (my hair isn't even that long!)?  Or, did she think that my hair was inappropriate for my age?
 
I'm really baffled by the comments linking short hair with confidence and daring.  Since most women have short hair, it seems to me that the people with long hair (especially guys!) are the more confident and daring ones.

Avatar
DaveDecker View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 28, 2000
Location: United States
Posted: Jun 17, 2006 at 9:57pm
Oh Anne... the subject line is "exhibit A" of the cognitive dissonance sown by your stylist...

Always bear in mind that stylists have potential conflicts of interest.  Their job, quite literally, is to convince people to part with their money (the more you part with, the better for them).  This is not intended to be an indictment of stylists in general, just a precaution that the things they tell you may have more to do with them keeping their eye on their personal "bottom line" than to do with being truthful.

The only evidentiary study I'm aware of (regarding men's preference for women's hair length) was performed at Florida State University.  Here's a link to it (go to page 4 of the PDF):

http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/psychology/news/newsletter/newsletter5.pdf

Most (but not all) of the men I have talked with on the subject prefer long hair to short; and mostly mid-back to waist-length, or longer.  I've only known (or known of) a few men who prefer short hair on women.  There are certainly fans of short hair in the Short Hair forum, and some also participate in the Celebrities forum.

There are probably a few men who like women being defiant, but I think there are lots of men who like strong women.  There is a difference.

I don't understand your stylist's comments.  Why would men prefer women to defy traditional definitions of femininity?  Aside from their personalities, men like women that look attractive - and for most men, long hair definitely enhances a woman's appearance.

In general, I think people are more daring and self-confident when they don't feel pressured to do something they don't want to do.  If you want long hair and don't feel attractive with it short, then you will probably be more daring and self-confident with long hair.

One more thing - the notion of long hair being inappropriate for "older" people is a myth.  I know of many women who are in their 40's and beyond who have beautiful long, long hair -- and they look great.


Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jun 18, 2006 at 9:57pm
Dear Dave,
 
I'll try to sum up my feelings about what you wrote here....you are brilliant, I love you, you are incredibly astute, you are my god....!!
 
Sorry, I don't want to embarrass you, and yes, I know you're just as human as the rest of us, but you really do have an insight that is so refreshing to those of us who live in the generic world where what  is thrown out at us is just supposed to be absorbed without any real thought.
 
I'll be the first to say (and I honestly think you'd say the same thing) that any woman who really loves short hair all by herself, without any coaxing from anyone, should of course keep her hair cut short.  It's her hair, and she should do what she wants with it!  However, I just feel that there are so many different ways (with my example about the "daring" women with short hair in my above post) that women (and I can't imagine the pressure you, as a man, have to endure) are told that they just shouldn't have long hair, especially past a certain age.
 
Thank you very much for that study!  It's just what I thought and although I realize that not every man loves long hair on a woman, the majority do. 

[QUOTE]There are probably a few men who like women being defiant, but I think there are lots of men who like strong women.  There is a difference.[/QUOTE]
 
I think you're very keen with this statement, and I couldn't agree more.

[QUOTE]I don't understand your stylist's comments.  Why would men prefer women to defy traditional definitions of femininity?[/QUOTE]
 
I think the reasoning is that the woman is just supposed to be so ultra confident of her femininity that all her other areas of personality overshadow the fact that she's wearing short hair, traditionally seen as unfeminine.  Oddly enough, though, I've never seen a woman "that feminine" that fit that description.
 
[QUOTE]One more thing - the notion of long hair being inappropriate for "older" people is a myth.  I know of many women who are in their 40's and beyond who have beautiful long, long hair -- and they look great.[/QUOTE]
 
I don't have a Swiss bank account, but when I do, you'll be the first one with the key and password!  I don't want to gush, but I just can't tell you how wonderful it is to hear your viewpoint.  I know that a lot of women here share it, and I appreciate it, but it just seems somehow stronger coming from someone who isn't in that situation (naturally, a woman who is over 40 and has long hair is going to agree, and it isn't that her opinion is any less valid than anyone else, but hopefully you know what I'm trying to say here)
 
Thanks for everything, Dave, and all the other great people here.


Avatar
Tyranna View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: Jun 19, 2006 at 9:57pm

Dave is correct - most stylists are short-hair biased because shorter hairstyles provide for them (1) a better guarantee for return customers; and (2) an easier job to perform.  There are many stylists that see working and shaping longer styles simply as too much work.  (Stylist Nick on that TV show 'What Not to Wear' is exactly like this.  He can be quite excellent at shaping and improving longer hair, but he ALWAYS prefers to cut the hair instead.)

 

And shorter hair styles means less time in the styling chair for you and more turnaround time for customers for the hair stylist, which means more $$$.

 

The majority of guys I have known in my entire life prefer longer hair on women.  Anna Kournukova for example, would not have ever become an international beauty sensation had she worn her hair really short.  Healthy long hair definitely has an exotic appeal. 

 

I honestly do not know where this idea that a woman with long hair has self-esteem issues came from.  Besides, I would say the majority of fashion models and actresses these days all have longer hair.

 

And I do not think that short hair should be considered the "norm".  My impression is that I see women (and girls) with all kinds of variety in hair length.  And this is a good thing.   Freedom of choice is always better than having only one alternative.   If you look at a period


Avatar
Kuroneko View Drop Down
Elite Member
Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Location: USA
Posted: Jun 19, 2006 at 9:57pm

Based on what I've seen, the usual hair length for American women is anywhere between shoulder-length and mid-back, which is far from short.  A lot of women keep their hair long because they think that's what men are attracted to.

In all honesty, though, aside from the guys who are specifically hair fans, most guys probably don't care what a woman's hair looks like.  Most of them won't notice of care much if their woman changes her hair, because men just aren't societally trained to notice that kind of thing.  It's just like how a guy won't notice if a woman is wearing a new blouse-- males are societally trained not to care about anything fashion-related.

Avatar
Merlin101 View Drop Down
Newbie
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: Jun 29, 2006 at 9:57pm

It seems Anne6000 brings up the same question frequently asked in these forums.  What do men really like about women and their hair?  I would say that men can be divided into three groups.  Long hair lovers, short hair lovers and "I don't care as long as they are gorgeous" lovers.  As far as beauty and sex appeal are concerned, I could care less.  I don't pay attention to polls or University studies because they are flawed from conception.  Most polls are biased and select their audience and participants based upon the desired result.  Further, men will cover their true feelings if their identity is known as they fear being labeled.  We are conditioned from early youth that long hair, large breast, hourglass figure is the only acceptable form of sexual attractiveness.  I honestly say that I see women with short hair or ultrashort hair as more confident and independent.  This does not mean that this is true for all women, just a general observation.  This attitude appeals to me due to the person I am. 

 Some people choose their profession, mine chose me.  As a musician, I prefer independent, confident, non-traditional women.  At least in my experience, short haired girls fit this mold more often than long haired girls.  Short haired girls are definitely more of a challenge and are more daring.  The long-haired girls I meet are predictably traditional down home girls.  What is really interesting is that they believe they are daring and party girls, but generally speaking, they don't even have a clue.  For the evening, give me either.  For a relationship, give me the short haired girls!

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jun 29, 2006 at 9:57pm
[QUOTE=Merlin101]
[quote] As a musician, I prefer independent, confident, non-traditional women. [/quote]
 
Regarding hair length, a non-traditional woman is one with long hair in western society.  So, there is a contradiction in what you say.  And that contradiction is what I'm questioning.   I sense you feel threatened by the question, and I'm very sorry because I'm only trying to understand the reasoning of seeing a "non-traditional" girl as one who has short hair, when short hair is the average or the norm (among adult women, not teenagers)
 
And yet, no one can explain this; that's why it must be a fallacy.
 

Avatar
Merlin101 View Drop Down
Newbie
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: Jun 30, 2006 at 9:57pm
I'm not sure where you live or which age group you are referring to, but down South, the under 40 group is heavily weighted to long hair and has been since the 80's era.  This is the age group I see the most since we don't play country or gospel.  I would have to say the same for Hollywood as well.  We haven't toured the west coast in a year or so, but I'll bet things haven't changed. 
 
Now if you are referring to the over 60 group, you are right on.  Short hair dominates. 

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jun 30, 2006 at 9:57pm
If you're judging a general population only by the audience at a music concert, then I can understand!  Take a look around.  Go to the grocery store, to the bank, to your local gym, and just look at the population in general.  There's no doubt that short rules.  TV news reporters rarely have long hair (it isn't "professional" you know).  As for Hollywood, look at a magazine for "celebrity hair" the next time you're at a magazine rack.  Lots and lots of celebs with short or very short hair.   A woman with long hair, especially very long hair, will always stand apart from the crowd.  I mean no offense at all, but short hair just blends in with the crowd because that's how the crowd usually wears their hair -- both men and women.  There's nothing wrong with that, but that's what provoked my original question. 

Avatar
DaveDecker View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 28, 2000
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 01, 2006 at 9:57pm
[QUOTE=Kuroneko]A lot of women keep their hair long because they think that's what men are attracted to.[/QUOTE]
 
How do you know this to be true?  You state it as fact, without any support.  I rather believe most of the women wearing their hair long have it long because they like it, and prefer it to short... but then notice how I've stated this -- as an opinion.
 
[QUOTE=Kuroneko]
 
In all honesty, though, aside from the guys who are specifically hair fans, most guys probably don't care what a woman's hair looks like.  Most of them won't notice of care much if their woman changes her hair, because men just aren't societally trained to notice that kind of thing.  It's just like how a guy won't notice if a woman is wearing a new blouse-- males are societally trained not to care about anything fashion-related.
[/QUOTE]
 
Some people think of hair (and treat it thusly) primarily as fashion.  No doubt this perception has been counseled by fashion enterprises who seek to exploit this perception for their own gain.
 
My opinion:  Innately for men, however, women's hair is viewed as an object of beauty, so while nearly all men would fail to notice a woman's new shoes or whatever, they're far more likely to notice changes women make to their hair.
 
 
[edited first quote to provide proper context to my comment]
DaveDecker2006-07-02 12:29:21

Avatar
DaveDecker View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 28, 2000
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 01, 2006 at 9:57pm
[QUOTE=Merlin101] I don't pay attention to polls or University studies because they are flawed from conception.  Most polls are biased and select their audience and participants based upon the desired result.  Further, men will cover their true feelings if their identity is known as they fear being labeled.[/QUOTE]
 
How do you know that the referenced survey wasn't conducted using well-established polling principles?  Might your dismissal of the referenced survey be based on it's disagreement with your preference?  Do you similarly disregard the validity of other such polls (not related to hair)?  Or only those with which you disagree?
 
[QUOTE=Merlin101]We are conditioned from early youth that long hair, large breast, hourglass figure is the only acceptable form of sexual attractiveness.[/QUOTE]
 
Unless of course such preferences are innate.  Other scientific studies have been done which support the definition of attraction you mention, because these features are indicative of health and fecundity.
 
[QUOTE=Merlin101]
I honestly say that I see women with short hair or ultrashort hair as more confident and independent.  This does not mean that this is true for all women, just a general observation.
[/QUOTE]
 
I just see confidence and independence as having the courage to do what you want.  I know many confident and independent women with long hair.  I don't see their decision to have long hair as a sign of weakness.

Avatar
Longhairdreams View Drop Down
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 01, 2006 at 9:57pm
Interesting topic.
 
But I have to agree with kuroneko.I know very few short haired women.I very rarely ever see any women around here with short hair.
 
But It also seems to be true that most men(but not all) prefer long hair.
 
 
I also agree with merlin about being force fed the idea about the ideal woman. Its true that studies prove this to be a sign of fertility.But it also sends an unhealthy message to girls who are fine trying to live up this standard because its the ideal image.
This is one of the reasons that plastic surgery has become so prevalent.Its obviously not to be more fertile.

Avatar
DaveDecker View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 28, 2000
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 02, 2006 at 9:57pm
Hi LHD,
 
Of course plastic surgery does not affect fertility at all.  But such surgery done to appear more "average" (closer to normal - i.e., beautiful) is done to give the appearance of better health (and indirectly, fertility).
 
That said, I'm not a fan of plastic surgery, unless it is used to correct something obviously amiss.  Unfortunately these days, it seems, nearly all plastic surgery is not warranted (IMHO).
 

Avatar
PurpleBubba View Drop Down
Member
Joined: Jul 18, 2002
Location:
Posted: Jul 02, 2006 at 9:57pm
I just wanted to say that although a lot of plastic surgery isn't needed it does serve a purpose that may not be seen at first glance.

I was born with a facial defect called cleft lip and cleft palate. My parents did not have the kind of money it would have taken to fix this. They found a doctor who told them "Don't worry about it. I make my money off of old ladies."

I'm just giving the quote that my mom told me he said. No offense meant to anyone who considers themself old.

There are many doctors who do similar things. Many of them travel to other countries to perform plastic surgery on people who have no access to surgery.

Unfortunately my doctor died in a plane crash in the late 80's. Meaning it's unfortunate that he's no longer around to help others.
PurpleBubba2006-07-02 13:55:21

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 02, 2006 at 9:57pm
[QUOTE=DaveDecker] Unless of course such preferences are innate.[/quote]
 
That's a great point.  Think about teeth.  Before modern dentistry, people who tended to have whiter, healthier teeth (and all of them!) were younger people.  Therefore, good teeth were a sign of not just youth, but good health.  Even today, if you look at the hair of people in their 80s, it can (but is not always the case of course) be very thin and just won't grow much.  Therefore, a woman with thick, long hair isn't just a sign of beauty but also of health.  Same with figures, being extremely overweight or underweight is not healthy, so those figures aren't just seen in terms of beauty but are seen in terms of health.  I'll be the first to argue that the Kate Moss chain-smoking figures are not only unhealthy, but not very attractive, and fortunately, I've never known a man who would prefer a skinny, unhealthy woman over a healthy woman with toned muscles and a healthy level of fat.
 
[quote]I just see confidence and independence as having the courage to do what you want.  I know many confident and independent women with long hair.  I don't see their decision to have long hair as a sign of weakness.[/quote]
 
Exactly!  Stylists generally encourage us to cut off our hair.  Magazine articles that talk about new hairstyles almost always talk about cutting it off.  It's the norm.  And, very sad to say, I nearly caved into pressure myself and cut my hair short.  However, the decision would have been the opposite of independent and confident.  I would have just been following the crowd.  So many articles that talk about hair rarely talk about growing it longer.  They talk about "getting rid of the long hair."  It seems to me that independent and confident is about going against society. 
 
In the 1920s, I would argue that the more confident and independent women cut their hair short.  But then, short hair became the norm in almost every decade, bar the 1960s.  (Maybe the word "short" should be defined.  If someone means that short hair is like a guy's butch cut with almost nothing to comb, then yes, the majority of women don't have such severe styles.)
 
Cutting the hair is physically very easy and can happen in a matter of minutes.  To grow hair longer takes a lot of time and patience.  (I'm not talking about the mental decision to cut or grow, only the physical action) It just seems to me that a confident woman is one who not only goes against the pressures of society but also one who takes the dedication and patience it requires to cut hair short.  I've read so many times that women who want to grow their hair just get so frustrated at the in-between styles that they just end up cutting it off.  I'm not criticizing that decision at all, but how that makes a woman more confident and independent is really the root of my question.  The statement seems a bit hypocritical since it's long hair that defies the rules of society.  For every Portia deRossi (sp?) or Jane Seymour, there are millions of Alyssa Milanos and Sharon Stones (with regard to hair length). 
 
The statement that short haired women are more confident and independent just seems to be propaganda since I can find no supporting evidence at all and when, in fact, long hair, especially very long hair, in western society is in the minority.    I think we should encourage everyone, both male and female, to wear their hair in whatever style and length THEY want.
 
Now, for guys with long hair, no question whatsoever.  Society says short hair for guys, so someone like Dave Decker is definitely going against the grain!  If he weren't confident of his decision, he'd be standing in line at the barber shop just like most guys.  (And I'm not trying to insult guys with short hair.  I love a variety of styles on both men and women. )  What I really rebel against is others pressuring you to do what they think you should do.  If I wanted short hair and others were pressuring me to grow it long (which rarely happens; I even asked about it on the short hair forum), I'd be just as indignant!
 

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 02, 2006 at 9:57pm
Here's a quote from Lem0605 to a post entitled "Should I go this short?" in the short hair forum:
 
[quote]GO SHORT!! It's the thing to do for the summer.. look at all of the celebs going short.[/quote]
 
So, is the confident woman doing what she wants or going short because it's the thing to do for the summer and all the celebs are going short?
 
That's exactly the kind of comments that many long-haired people get.  When was the last time someone asked how long she should grow her hair and received the reply, "GO LONG!!  It's the thing to do for winter.. look at all the celebs going long."?
 
I can only conclude that the mere act of cutting hair short has no more or less to do with confident and independence than a woman growing her hair long against the norms of society.

Avatar
Kuroneko View Drop Down
Elite Member
Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Location: USA
Posted: Jul 04, 2006 at 9:57pm
The statement was largely anecdotal, based on women I've spoken to, both online and off.  Unfortunately, that means I have no studies on hand to cite.  I'm sure many other short-haired women have been approached by long-haired women who said they liked short hair but didn't think their boyfriends/husbands would approve, or didn't think they could get dates that way.
 
I must've been living around a lot of unobservant males all my life, then ^_^; .  In my experience, it's been women who notice and comment at even the slightest hair change.  By the time most males notice I've made one hair change, I'm already pretty much over that style and ready to move on to the next!
 
[QUOTE=DaveDecker][QUOTE=Kuroneko]A lot of women keep their hair long because they think that's what men are attracted to.[/QUOTE]
 
How do you know this to be true?  You state it as fact, without any support.  I rather believe most of the women wearing their hair long have it long because they like it, and prefer it to short... but then notice how I've stated this -- as an opinion.
 
[QUOTE=Kuroneko]
 
In all honesty, though, aside from the guys who are specifically hair fans, most guys probably don't care what a woman's hair looks like.  Most of them won't notice of care much if their woman changes her hair, because men just aren't societally trained to notice that kind of thing.  It's just like how a guy won't notice if a woman is wearing a new blouse-- males are societally trained not to care about anything fashion-related.
[/QUOTE]
 
Some people think of hair (and treat it thusly) primarily as fashion.  No doubt this perception has been counseled by fashion enterprises who seek to exploit this perception for their own gain.
 
My opinion:  Innately for men, however, women's hair is viewed as an object of beauty, so while nearly all men would fail to notice a woman's new shoes or whatever, they're far more likely to notice changes women make to their hair.
 
 
[edited first quote to provide proper context to my comment]
[/QUOTE]

Avatar
Merlin101 View Drop Down
Newbie
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 06, 2006 at 9:57pm

The University study referred to earlier is flawed in multiple ways as I am sure Dave researched and knows.  Selecting 50 men from a controlled group is not scientific.  Having only 6 choices of hair style is also not scientific.  This study only supports my argument to ignore polls.  Not all women are attractive with short hair.  I think we all can agree on this.  Courtney Thorne-Smith is a perfect example of someone whom should never again sport short hair.  Is it conceivable that the directors of the FSU-Panama City study wanted an outcome that "proved" men prefer long dark hair?  Maybe.  One way of doing this is to have pictures of a very unbecoming lady sporting various hairstyles and then having attractive women with long hairstyles, while asking men for their preference.  I spent 3 years studying Psychology, Sociology, and Anthropology before leaving college behind to focus on music.  I know a thing or two about polls.  Enough on that subject.

And yes Dave, I disagree with all polls.  See above for rationale.

Now to use a little anthropology education.  During the course of human evolution, perceptions as to attractive, healthiness and fertility have changed with culture.  That's right...CULTURE.  Some cultures over time held that overweight women and men were more attractive, as this meant they could afford food.  Other cultures including Europe in the Middle Ages held that only the fairest of skin was a sign of health.  In the South Pacific, women with facial tatoos are considered a thing of beauty.  Ancient Egypt felt men and women with no hair at all were the most attractive.  It is a cultural evolution that brings us today to believe women with long hair, an hourglass figure and a healthy tan are the most beautiful.  Please check out beauty pagents.  Virtually all women have long locks and all have that "Barbie Doll" figure. 

As for confidence, it is my opinion, that women with short hair are bold and confident.  This is a general statement and my general belief.  It is shared by the marketing companies of big business.  Witness, TV commercial for Ban Rollon, woman getting hair cut shorter and shorter while verbally saying, "nervous is getting your hair cut...and cut...and cut..".  If this is not a bold move, why be nervous?  Act II, Ford commercial with lady shaving her head.  The tagline Ford uses(or their marketing agent).  BOLD.  Can all these marketing giants be wrong?  Possibly, if they used polls to make these judgements. 

To Anne6000,  I think we have different understandings of short or long hair.  If long is defined as mid-back or longer and short is everything else, I concur with you that society currently prefers short hair.  Personally, I consider hair past the shoulders as long, hair close to shoulder length as medium and hair off the shoulder as short.  Using my definition, and your suggestion, I conducted a study(not scientific albeit) over the last week.  I visited two grocery stores, two malls, one strip club, three Hooters restaurants and one baseball game with my son.  I strived to estimate the ages of those counted to only include women between 20-50, as you stated most teenage girls prefer long hair.  This study covered one small town, Charleston, SC and Jacksonville, FL.  Conclusions with my definitions:

64% Long(7% Mid-Back or Below)
25% Medium
11% Short(3% Short Crop)
 
My assumption of your definition of Long=Mid Back and Below:
 
93% Short
7% Long
 
We both win.  Additionally, I have new material and a great video concept.  Keep watching FUSE and you just might find out the secrets of Merlin.
 
P.S.  To me, a woman of beauty is petite, blonde (usually short) with color highlights, tasteful tattoos, body piercings (not facial) and one killer-kick butt/take no prisoner attitude.  One confident to do what she wants and ask no one for their opinion.  Bra size doesn't matter, but being a compassionate caring mother to my kid does.
 
Keep Rockin, looking to the future and never waste a moment lamenting about the past!!!
 

 

 

 


Avatar
Merlin101 View Drop Down
Newbie
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 06, 2006 at 9:57pm
Check out this picture of Ms. Kline. 
 
She is the researcher that conducted the study that Dave refers to above.  Maybe she was looking for a particular conclusion when she conducted her research.  Her conclusion as read from the link that Dave provided was that women and men prefer women with long dark hair. 
 
Is it coincidence that she has long dark hair???  Decide for yourself after checking out her picture.
 
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/kkline.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/kkline.dp.html&h=211&w=140&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=c--wt9V5slynfM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522kelley%2Bkline%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
 
Polls are useless.

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 06, 2006 at 9:57pm

[QUOTE=Merlin101]Is it conceivable that the directors of the FSU-Panama City study wanted an outcome that "proved" men prefer long dark hair?[/quote]

 
Nearly anything in life is conceivable, and it's a good question.  Was this study funded by someone who has a vested interested in short hair products?  Healthy skepticism is very good, and I do it myself.  However, what if the results had gone the other way?   You have no basis for your premise other than it's what you wish to believe.   When tobacco companies conduct studies on the dangers of tobacco, obviously the outcome directly affects the company.  If Clairol does a study on women and hair color, they have a vested interest in the outcome.  What vested interest does a university have in what length of hair men prefer on women?  
 
 
[quote]Witness, TV commercial for Ban Rollon, woman getting hair cut shorter and shorter while verbally saying, "nervous is getting your hair cut...and cut...and cut..".  If this is not a bold move, why be nervous?[/quote]
 
Because she doesn't sound very confident of what she's doing.  Maybe she's nervous because she feels pressured into the decision, like I have felt.  If I wanted my hair cut short, then I'd sit there and be confident and happy about the hair falling, not nervous!   I don't watch tv, so I'm not familiar with the ad, but it sounds like yet another ploy to suggest that women cut their hair short.    It sounds worse than I thought it was.
 
 
[quote]Act II, Ford commercial with lady shaving her head.  The tagline Ford uses(or their marketing agent).  BOLD.  Can all these marketing giants be wrong?[/quote]
 
Is it "conceivable" the makers of the commercials all have hair fetishes and are trying to convince women to cut off all their hair so that they could make money from all the products and services that bald and short haired women bring?  
 
Literally getting rid of all the hair is different from simply having a preference for short hair.  Short or long hairstyles only have to do with length.  Being bald by choice is rather radical.  It sounds like someone is making a political or other extreme statement or has a fear of having any hair at all. 
 
 
[quote]Personally, I consider hair past the shoulders as long, hair close to shoulder length as medium and hair off the shoulder as short.[/quote]
 
Me, too.  On that, we agree!
 
 
[quote]My assumption of your definition of Long=Mid Back and Below[/quote]
 
Could you point out where I say that?  Perhaps part of the problem is that you're reading what isn't there.
 
 
[quote]Using my definition, and your suggestion, I conducted a study(not scientific albeit) over the last week.  I visited two grocery stores, two malls, one strip club, three Hooters restaurants and one baseball game with my son.[/quote]
 
A strip club and a Hooter's restaurant -- two places that cater to what men like sexually.  No wonder you found lots of long-haired women!  It's what guys prefer.
 
I've never been to a strip club or Hooters, and that will be true for many people.  That's kind of like going to a high school, where I will concur that probably most females (not staff) have long hair.   When I say society, I mean places that aren't exclusive for special audiences.  Places like I mentioned that nearly everyone visits or places that have a good cross-mix of society:  grocery stores, doctor's or dentist's offices, banks, staff of female teachers, and places that don't revolve around men's sexual fantasies, overt or not.  You really are going out of your way to try to prove something you cannot.
 
However, why aren't there more short haired girls in strip clubs and Hooters?   Because business owners want to provide what the customer wants, and if guys prefer long hair, then these places will cater to what most guys like:  long hair on women.  If more guys did prefer short hair on women, then it would make business sense that strip clubs and Hooter's restuarants would cater to whatever the prevailing preference is.   Currently, it is a preference of long hair on women.
 
However, your informal poll that found lots of long hair in sexally-oriented businesses concurs perfectly with the study that Dave mentioned. 
 
 
[quote]To me, a woman of beauty is petite, blonde (usually short) with color highlights, tasteful tattoos, body piercings (not facial) and one killer-kick butt/take no prisoner attitude.[/QUOTE]
 
It sounds like your personal preference is a tough little dominatrix biker babe.  Variety is what makes the world go round. 
anne60002006-07-06 18:48:34

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 06, 2006 at 9:57pm
[QUOTE=Merlin101]Check out this picture of Ms. Kline.[/quote]
 
She's gorgeous!
 
Yes, every woman with long hair is out to get out, Merlin, especially those confidant, bold, educated women with Ph.Ds. 
 
You're really being a bit paranoid now.  If she were the owner of a hair products company, I'd be the first to agree with you.   But she's a researcher at a university.  You don't like the results, and you'll nit-pick with completely inconsequential items to try to talk yourself into believing that the poll is completely invalid.
 
You seem to be trying to convince everyone (maybe yourself?) that long hair is not attractive and short hair women are these rare and elusive birds that men secretly crave. 
 
I truly like to see a variety of hairstyles on women (not bald, though) and my original question had nothing to do with trying to "prove" that long haired women are somehow more superior (which I don't believe at all) to other women.  However, you've kind of turned the discussion into that, unfortunately.   There's nothing at all wrong with anyone preferring short hair on women, but I think it's wrong for society to present such propaganda (even misleading) to women to cut it short.  Lots of companies and businesses benefit when women cut their hair short, so it's to their benefit to try to talk women into cutting off and keeping off their long hair.

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 06, 2006 at 9:57pm

Edit, an earlier edited post appeared here as a new post,  I have no idea how I did that.

anne60002006-07-06 17:50:26

Avatar
enfys View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 05, 2003
Location:
Posted: Jul 07, 2006 at 9:57pm

Dear me, this is geting intersting now.

I'm in the UK, I've not seen those car ads and have no desire to either.  Oddly, most of our ads focus on the cars, not odd little fetishes. 
I also have no idea what Hooters is, but their homepage told me that they do swimsuit pageants, sell dvds and do a calendar of skantily clad women.  No, I wouldn't say this was unbiased.
 
Merlin, you have a painfully biased sample.  The original study had 50 (a moderate sized sample)  men and six variations.  This would be accepted as scientific.  Also, they used the same woman for three of the pictures, making hers a control face - the only variation was her hairstyle. 
 
I studied psychology too.

Avatar
Merlin101 View Drop Down
Newbie
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: Jul 07, 2006 at 9:57pm
I feel brutally attacked by now.  I don't think I have attempted to convince anyone to do anything or think in any way.  I simply participated in what I believed to be an open discussion.  The woman I spent last night with had long blonde hair, shoulder blade length.  I didn't request her to get a haircut or even believe she would look better with short hair.  Why does Anne feel the need to attack me and form opinions of me?  Maybe she is the one who is insecure and paranoid of her appearance and is trying to convince the world to grow out their hair to be like her.  Maybe people who see her honestly think she would look better with shorter hair.  Some women do.  Notice here, SOME WOMEN, not ALL.
 
As for the theory that hairstylist are biased due to the almighty $$$, I suppose they never made money off the beehive, perming, coloring,or by selling lots of shampoo, conditioners and other products to maintain long locks.  How about brushes and blow dryers?  Seems money is made off of long hair just as much as short hair. 
 
She states in her original post,
 
"However, in practice, think about the vast majority of women you see in public places like grocery stores, doctor's offices, driver's license places, and things like that.  What length of hair do the majority of women (at least in the US) have?  I've traveled the US from each coast and have been to many places.  Completely objectively, I can say that the vast majority of women (not counting teenage girls, who do tend to have longer hair) have hair above collar length.  Short hair IS the norm in society.  I'm not criticizing that, but I'm just making an observation." 
 
Yet no one else on this thread has agreed with her. 
 
She agrees with my observation on what constitutes long hair.  Yet, per the results of my informal survey, long hair clearly is dominate in U.S. Culture.  She offers grocery stores as a public place to prove her theory, but the grocery stores I surveyed had the second smallest percentage of short haired women, only behind Hooters.  The strip club had the largest percentage of short haired women, completely devastating her theory.  I never provided a breakdown of the numbers in the former post, yet Anne6000 assumed Hooters and the strip club were dominated by long haired women.  Sorry, Hooters yes, strip club, no.
 
Ask an accountant, "What is two plus two?", and a good one will tell you, "What do you want it to be?".  Pollsters are the same.  Sorry, but that is just the way the world works. 
 
As for time wasted to nit-pik and prove a point.  Not at all, this is what I do for creative ideas.  I post on boards of various topics all over the net.  I observe socialogical tendancies.  This is why my music and lyrics have meaning and depth.  I am not out to prove any point at all, just observe.  I only disagreed with Anne6000's opinion that U.S. culture is dominated, coast to coast, with short hairstyles for women.  I still disagree, only more confidently due to my research. 
 
This will be my last post on this thread as I don't tend to be argumentative and I feel this thread has definitely turned in that direction.  Sorry Anne6000.
 

Avatar
anne6000 View Drop Down
Junior Member
Joined: May 20, 2006
Location:
Posted: Jul 07, 2006 at 9:57pm
Hi enfys,
 
[QUOTE=enfys]Merlin, you have a painfully biased sample.  The original study had 50 (a moderate sized sample)  men and six variations.  This would be accepted as scientific.  Also, they used the same woman for three of the pictures, making hers a control face - the only variation was her hairstyle. 
 
I studied psychology too.
[/QUOTE]
 
Hooters is a restaurant where the women are almost exclusively large-breasted and wear tight tops, and according to Merlin's informal study, most have long hair in his local chain.  Again, the reason is obvious:  most guys prefer long hair on women!  I have nothing against the place, but there isn't one near where I live.  It is definitely a specialty restaurant, so you're right, it is highly biased.
 
Excuse me now, please, because I have to run a few errands like everyone else, you know, so I thought I'd take the kids and stop in at my local strip club and then off to lunch at Hooter's.  I'll probably run into lots of friends and neighbors there, of course. 
 
In all seriousness, Merlin, I wasn't trying to attack you at all, but what you said simply didn't make sense.  If you personally find short haired women more confidant and bold, I can't argue with your personal preferences.  What I was at first seeking was the logical argument behind it, and there doesn't appear to be one.  Since you prefer short hair on women, it would be logical for you to think those women are in short supply. 
 
Earlier, Merlin, you were seriously questioning the possible bias of the university study but didn't provide any evidence that the university would benefit from finding that men preferred long hair on women.  Yet, you included in your informal study (and you wanted to prove that long hair was the norm) you went to places where I think most of us would be surprised if short hair were the norm!  That bias for the places you chose was very clear.  It would be like my going to a senior citizen's center and claiming that the majority of women have short hair -- of course they do in that particular place.  Same with a strip club and Hooter's, only with long hair being the norm.  Because......that's what guys prefer, and those places cater predominantly to men.
 
Taking a look at hairstyle magazines in a salon, you'll find that the vast majority of styles and cuts are short.  If most women had long hair, the business side of the magazines would dictate that they cater to the majority of their paying clients and the trends would reflect that long hair and show more long hair styles.  Either that, or they're, once again providing pressure for women to cut their hair by not offering many other alternatives than short styles.
 
 
anne60002006-07-07 10:50:14
Topic Admin
Subject:
Required
Message Icon:
  
Sticky Topic:
Lock Topic:
Move Topic:

 
Show moved icon in last forum
Hide Topic:
Hide/display topic, you still approve posts
Delete Topic:
Delete this topic
Post Admin
Copyright 1997-2024, hairboutique.com All Rights Reserved.
Copyright 1997-2024, hairboutique.com
All Rights Reserved