Hair does (i repeat) NOT have a gender.

I'm going to have to take exception to some of what you've said here, Brent. To link the health of a society to number of children produced is a bizarre sort of measure; and the comments you make about immigration to western europe are ill informed. Have more children? I intend to have none and that is my business and not society's or the government's. Not saying this is your agenda, but the most active proponents of larger families have always been fascists (cf Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy).

Just my 2 cents,
Chris

Hi Chris,

I totally agree with you from a philosophical as well as personal point of view.

I made a conscious decision when I was in my 20s to not have children. Even in my early 20s I was a workaholic maniac and driven beyond belief. I would work nonstop for as long as 3 days straight w/out sleep. I watched my friends over the years try to juggle careers and kids and struggle with both. I have devoted my life to my career and felt that I would only do a half assed job of being a parent if I tried since I knew that I would always have this career drive. So I directed my maternal urges towards my nieces and nephews and the kids of my best friends. Of couse my two companies are my "babies" as are the people who visit HairBoutique.com.

Anyway, needless to say, my decision has netted me a lot of unusual and sometimes negative responses. I love children but felt I couldn't be a good parent while being a workaholic manic. That was my choice. I don't judge anyone else for their own personal decisions but I have been criticized, attacked and pitied for not having kids. Oh well. Such is life. :-) And I might add that I have never had any regrets about my choices.

Ultimately everyone needs to be true to who they are and their chosen lifepath.

Best wishes,
Karen

*Chris.

I really don't think Brent said people should have unusually large families, but they should have enough children so they don't depopulate, which would cause huge economic problems. If you have read anything about west Europe you know that in a few years because they aren't having enough children they will have far too many old people compared to the number of young workers and their social security system will eventually collapse as they will be unable to pay for all the old people without enough young taxpayers. They will be plunged into poverty as they will have to dramtically increase taxes on their workers severely lowering their standard of living and will probably have to cut all forms of government social benefits.
I have worked in various aspects of business and finance and I know this to be true, I know how financial things work.

* Having read some of Brent's posts he mentioned that he is a White Guy married to an Asian woman. He also seems to be very tolerant of gays and lesbians, which as a lesbian woman, I appreciate.
I hardly think he is a fascist. Nor are the Scandinavian governments who pay people to have more children fascist, in fact they are some of the most socially liberal, socialistic governments in the world.


*Many of my fellow gays and lesbians won't admit this but having children is a "normal" and yes a "healthy" function of being an adult.* I am certainly not saying everyone has to have kids, I respect single childless people or couples without children, {be they hetrosexual or homosexual}, just as I respect people with kids, but thankfully many people have decided to have children otherwise there would be no humans, which would make the world a pretty dull place. *I like people myself.

*****Having kids isn't for everyone but I know the joy that Tina and I get from her 5 year old daughter. *She is a joy!

Karen.

*You do a great job with this website and with your career. I hope what I have written is not any sort of putdown on you, or Chris, or anyone else who have decided to be childless.* I am a lesbian woman, and even though I look and act "normal" I have faced discrimination due to my sexual preference. *Please understand I am not judging anyone.

Dear KathyAnn,

Thank you for your post although I did not feel you were judging me. Nor did I feel that Chris was calling anyone fascist. I can't speak for Chris but I was just posting in response to his statement about his choice not to have kids.

I applaud your lifestyle as I applaud all lifestyles regardless of what "box" they fit into. I have a dear friend who is living life as a transsexual waiting to go through surgery and she has taught me a lot about living life outside of the norm. I lost a family member to AIDS many years ago and have many same sex couple friends. I always look for a person's soul and inner self when I make friends and do not care if they are old, young, what color their skin is, their sexual preference or how their body looks. It is very liberating and I cherish all the people that are in my life in some way.

As far as any of the other posters here at HairTalk, we (Jeff and I) have suffered through some terrible times in the past with trolls who posted only to anger and upset people, a wide range of spammers, hackers and deliberate virus attackers. We just suffered through a horrible 48 hours dealing with a virus attack of huge proportions. If a person is serious about participating from an honorable position they will register as member. If they don't I continue to view them with rightful suspicion.

I will say that I have zero tolerance for anyone that posts what appears to be deliberate attempts to attack, rile or cause discension on the HairTalk boards. Although some may not agree with my stance, history has taught me that the only way to deal with trolls is to block them from the boards. They are welcome to go somewhere else.

I have dedicated every spare minute of my life since 1997 to HairBoutique.com, which was started with my own hard earned money and is still 100%supported from our store sales. So yes, I do take this seriously and hopefully my willingness to act against trolls has made HairTalk a safe and good place to post.

Thanks again for your post.

Best wishes,
Karen

Thanks, Karen. And KathyAnn, I too have no intention to judge. One quick point though... "If you have read anything about west Europe"; I've done better than that, I've lived in western Europe my entire life and have travelled extensively there.
:o)

Chris

*Chris I don't pretend to know more about west Europe than you or others that live there. I have been there twice in the last five years on vacation, once for nearly a month. I have been to most of the countries in western Europe. I loved vacationing there, that is why I went there twice.* I also don't think in any way are Americans superior to west Europeans. *There are differences between America and western Europe though, that is for sure.


*England seemed the most like America to me, I mean the people's mentality and attitudes, not just language, {since just about every country I went to there, many people spoke English}. The country I liked the best was Ireland. I was absolutely enchanted by the place; it's beauty, the kind people, the music in the pubs, I was charmed by Ireland.{Darn ! I don't have a drop of Irish blood, but I felt like a long lost cousin when I was there!}.

The countries of the European continent seemed very different than America to me. Not better or worse, just different. Talking with people there and reading the English language press there I know that some of the biggest issues in countries like Germany, Italy, Belgium, and Holland are immigrant issues. There was alot of talk about Russians, Albanians, Turks and so forth bringing more crime and unemployment to west Europe{and I know they have fairly high unemployment already there}. * Another big issue was expanding the European Union to include all of east Europe. This was also a very contentious issue. It was very clear to me that each country in west Europe has their own language and culture, which, quite rightly, they want to preserve. In America everybody from wherever their ancestors are from just learn English and become Americans. But we are a fairly new country made up of immigrants, we don't have an old time traditional language and culture like the west Europeans. America often seems like it has almost no tradition at all at times, like we just invent our culture as we go along. Europe really does have a great, and many centuries old, traditional culture, which is really cool, that is beautiful, the traditonal culture!* But it can also make it harder to absorb vast east European areas{ like Turkey, Russia, the Ukraine, Poland, and especially the war torn Balkan states}, into west Europe. Not only the cultural and language differences but also east Europe is so much poorer economically than west Europe. Some parts of the old Soviet Union, the Balkans, and Turkey have genuinely third world standards of living. It isn't so easy to bring in and integrate dozens of poor countries with 400 million people in them.* So the whole idea of making the European Union too much bigger was extremely controversial. Almost everyone in west Europe I talked to about it thought west Europe should try to help east Europe, but no one I talked to thought that large areas of east Europe should be brought into the European Union, {at least not right now}, or that large numbers of immigrants from east Europe be brought in. The surveys and polls done in Europe indicate this as well, that this is the feelings of a majority of west Europeans. I have read this in the British, European and American papers.
* This is different than America because the U.S. is really a continent in itself, it is a huge land area with a large and growing population. Europe is dozens of smaller countries, each with their own language, culture and traditions. America is not better than Europe or visa-versa. * But they are different. Europe has much more tradition to defend and protect and they obviously have very strong feelings, quite rightly, about their traditions.


*****And as I mentioned before, there are other differences too. But I emphatically am not judging anyone. I am glad different parts of the world are different from each other. Variety is the spice of life as they say!

Karen.
Thank you for being so understanding. I was actually not going to even mention that I am a lesbian and in a relationship with a woman, but I decided a few years ago that I am a "normal" person in my own way and I wasn't going to hide in the closet anymore. Now, without being obnoxious about it I hope, I let people know I am a lesbian and that I am not an extremist of any sort or forcing my beliefs or lifestyle on to them.

* I have to be myself though. If people reject me because I am lesbian well I guess I just won't associate with them all that much.
You learn who your friends really are.

Hi KathyAnn

I just wanted to welcome you to this community and extend the hand/arm/shoulder of friendship.

Hope you post often and enjoy your time here.

Hugs.

Uzma

*Wow,
Thanks uzma that's sweet of you! I appreciate your warm welcome. Best wishes!

My 2 cents worth,

I had an assistant once who wore many numerous piercings, tatoos and muti-colored hair. I had a talk with her once because she was really down about the way some of the clients were reacting to her look. My speech went something like this......

"I know you are new to the business and you are very young (18) but sometimes people have set opinions about things that we cannot change their minds about. I think you are a wonderful person, you care about everyone and everything around you. You have a very soft heart. You are creative beyond anyones means and I admire you for artistic expression, and wish I could be more like you.
People tend to assume things because of the way you look, for instance, I am overweight and as you know it does not affect my self esteem what so ever. God did not create everyone to look the same or be the same, and he did not make any mistakes, therefore every person is beautiful. Our job is to bring out the beauty both outward and inward appearance. People assume that I sit around all day and stuff my face with food, never getting out and moving. While as you and I both know that is not true. I eat very healthy, take lots of vitamins and work out at the gym at least 3-4 times a week. But when society looks at me and I tell them this they usually ar thinking "yea right".
Well thats their problem.
Bottom line is, you cannot change others opinions of you or any issue and you can kill yourself trying. All you can do is KNOW who you are and that YOU are very special and GOD loves you just the way you are."

This did make her feel alot better.

Another example is, in our medium to small size town, there is one of the 5 high schools in our county that uses the mascot "Rebel", a confedrate soilder. They have at every ballgame and on their cars the confederate flag waving in all its glory. Every one has their own opinion about this flag. Need less to say for years this has brought up HUGE controversy. Being in the south, there are alot of people who are very proud of this flag. They feel it stands for the pride they feel living in the south, kinda a rebel against "city-life", they do not feel it is a racist symbol nor use it as such. However, their is the other side of it that, yes, the KKK use it as a racist symbol therefore many feel that it reperesents the desire to have slavery back.
Everytime the controversy rises I am asked my opinion of the subject. I always reply......"I know and you know what the flag carrier is intentions are about the flag ( the pride thing) BUT we cannot change the way people feel about it and therefore they should NOT use it. I grew up in a large city not far from here and when my high school played this one, a student made his way over to our bleachers and started waving the rebel flag. Being a well diversifyed high school this un welcome visitor was kicked and thrown done the bleachers and was very hurt. So see when you visit other places, they do not understand, they only understand what they have been exposed to and you cannot chage other peoples minds. You can however respect their opinion and for the students own saftey not fly it"
I always get the reply...."wow, I did not think of it that way"

Kintaro, People will have their own opinion of you no matter what you look like. The important thing is that you feel good about who you are and how God designed you, because God makes NO mistakes.

Please lock this thread. As of post possibly 22 or in that area, the topic of conversation was birthrates.



And then this last post. Time to quote from it.

God did not *cough*cut-a-piece-out*cough* make any mistakes.


You got that right. Now stop shoving such a concept down my throat. That sentence is true both ways. If he exists, he's magically perfect (IPU complex) and if he doesn't, well, nonexistence makes that concept unable to make mistakes. I'm a moderate atheist, I'm not shoving my lack of belief down your throat, but kick me, and I'll kick you back.


And even w/o the divine references, it isn't even on topic. The topic was about people using FEMININE AND MASCULINE as BUZZWORDS to make themselves magically feel better when they have an array of words that actually mean something to use in its place. That's like using God to justify doing good. Why not do something simply because it is good ? --- Simple. People need to glorify themselves, and that type of egoism makes me sick.



Thanks to "most" of you for participating in this thread when it still meant something.

Yes Kintaro this thread got a little off topic. I'm sure that's happened before.

*As far as someone making a reference to God, when I was your age I was a hard core atheist and didn't like it when people mentioned God or religion to justify themselves or their "good deeds" or whatever, so I know what you mean.

I've changed a little since then though, I'm not so sure I know everything and have all the answers, {which could be, if I'm lucky, the beginning of wisdom}, and I am much less offended if someone makes a reference to God or religion.

*One other thing I am sure you will find to be true. Many, many people believe in God or some sort of greater power and get a great deal of faith and hope from it, especially in times of terrible grief and sorrow. And religion in fact does help people behave well and do good things for others, like run charities for the less fortunate. Maybe you think they are silly to have to justify their good works with religion but if it helps them I say, so be it, who am I do put them down.

*I can assure you that you will hear about God again many more times in your life. *Religion is very prevelant, apparently, in the human condition. If you feel you need to "correct" someone every time they bring up religion, you are going to be doing alot of "correcting".

*****The communists tried for decades in many countries to get rid of religion and it just came back stronger than ever in those countries. The more they tried to get rid of it, or "correct" it the stronger it seemed to get.

Atheists can't understand why people need to believe in something like God, religion, or a larger power, but many people do, that is for sure.

In my humble opinion, the intention of Lili's post was to support and reassure.

We all have a personal philosophy of life and can only interact with each other from this subjective perspective.
Some choose to impose their values and belief systems on others, be it subtly or overtly.
Let's not go there.

I re-assert: It is the intention that is important, not the philosophical framework.

Forget the God-bit if it offends you.
See past it and through it to the simple expression of care by another human being.

[QUOTE=KathyAnn] Atheists can't understand why people need to believe in something like God, religion, or a larger power
[/QUOTE]

That's a gross generalization.
I'm an atheist myself and I am fully aware that lots of people feel the need to believe in a higher power.

I can imagine religion can be very comforting in darker times, and very festive in times of joy. It's also an extremely social thing, it can bring people together (and unfortunately also causes friction between some people).

Having said that, I think good points were made by all, and I do mean ALL, of you. And I really can't think of a nicer bunch of people on the web.

That doesn't mean we all have to agree here, though.

*I was speaking in general terms Isla.*

I didn't mean Atheists can't understand religion I meant that they are not believers in God themselves.

(snip)

ah, never mind.

[QUOTE=KathyAnn] *I was speaking in general terms Isla.*

I didn't mean Atheists can't understand religion I meant that they are not believers in God themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, good. I'm glad that's cleared up.
I didn't understand you making that statement because, judging by everything else you said, you seem like a very open-minded person.

Religion can be used for many things, the most main 2 things is cultural normalization and as an emotional crutch. (i.e. "Oh, God Bless you" and turning around and not giving a crap about the person they say it to)


Spirituality is something else, it is when you can generate something from nothing, order in chaos, or chaos in order. It is the smile, the thumbs-up to the cross-country hiker, it is the drive that leads to actions that benefit people when they actually need it, it's the helping hand that extends to not only helps others but helps themselves.


I know Uzi's core feelings are in the realm of spirituality. Not in some book, or some pre-conceived idea. And I know most people who tend to say God Bless say it like it means good-bye. So do you think it's not normal to feel offended ? It's like cutting you off, saying discussing, conversing is over.

And I know people who just follow a *faith* since they've been herded, and unwilling to think that breaking the mold could be beneficial to their mind and spirit. Some of them are on this forum (well, not that hard to expect since xians are the majority).


There's an expression in french..... la charit

Elissa, you didn't have to edit what you wrote to Kintaro. Your criticisms of him were not at all unfair. He IS at times very rude, condescending to others and a know-it-all, as are many young people when they are 18. They think they have got it all figured out. I was the same way.

Kintaro is a very bright young guy, he probably has a very high I.Q.. It is the very bright young people who sometimes are the most rude, because they know they are smarter than others.

I have a high I.Q. myself. I have had to learn over the years to temper my opinions, that I don't have all the answers, even if I am bright.
One of the things I have tried to learn to do is not be condescending to those who have differing views from me. ( For example even though I am not a church goer, I don't refer to people in organized religion as having a herd mentality just because they go to a church or temple and believe in organized religion. I have found that people who are devout believers and go to church on a regular basis can often be very individualistic people in their own right and good people in other ways as well).

But Kintaro's attitudes and condescending attitude to people that he sees as "conformists" are typical of a kid his age. I was the same way.
18 year old's always believe they have all the answers. It just comes with the territory. Especially if they are bright young people like Kintaro probably is.

*Kintaro.

*You know you are very bright.
But you don't have all the answers, none of us do. You need more than intelligence to get along in the world. You need to respect others. That's called maturity.
The adult world you will have to function in within a few years isn't like the arcade you frequent.


*...You accuse the majoritiy of being conformists and narrow minded; "xians" as you describe them.


Maybe by steroetyping them you are a bit of a "reverse conformist"yourself. You, in that respect, are a stereotype.
* In your own way you don't seem to me to be all that tolerant or unbigoted yourself.

Thanks Kathy Ann--

I'm not at all unaware of the things you've pointed out (having a rather high IQ, and being over eighteen, myself!).

I just changed my mind re: stating the obvious. There are so many better things to do with my energy.

Elissa

At the risk of triple-hijacking this thread (or perhaps bringing it back to the original idea).....

[QUOTE]But Kintaro's condescending attitude to people that he sees as "conformists" are typical of a kid his age."[/QUOTE]

Some people are able to see through social pretensions and insecurities, regardless of age.
Some people have high ideals that are literally and metaphorically slashed as they realize what is going on in the world around them.

Some will fall into conformity with the generality of things and accept the status quo without further questioning.
Others will question, test and rip apart every proposition of alleged truth/sanity/the right thing etc and accept nothing less than that which their minds and spirits recognize as the indisputable Truth.
We all tread a path in life, and this too is a path. One of great sensitivity, not necessarily to the feelings of others, but rather sensitivity to the nature of/search for truth.

Through rejection, some are able to find the Ultimate (whatever and however It/That/He/She may be). If they are even interested. And if they are, they wield the proverbial sword.

If Kintaro is in this place, and I am not making any presumptions that he is (only he knows) than I totally understand his intolerance of anything that smacks of dogma or that assumes that he participates in a given world-view.
That would include the cultural (mis)connotation of gender in genderless areas as a means of social definition and behavioural control.

It's a thin line we walk on these boards.
We are faceless, voiceless and nameless, except on a screen, to each other.
Yet I can feel a connection with you all (and a strong kinship with Kintaro) because I am extrapolating an -albeit imaginary- person behind the web persona. Based on your individual words, thoughts, ideas.
That's a failing I can live with :-)

Where is the boundary between challenging discussion and disrespecting each other? It is in the shadows.
Lets move on.

Uzi

Uzma, I agree. It's time that this thread be concluded.