Pre-Bleaching and then using Drugstore Color?

Hi,

New to the forums and have a question for those who might be able to shed light.

I have used a number of different Red and Violet Red colors on my hair for the last 4 years.

My 'virgin' hair is a dirty blonde color, but now the ends are pretty much a dark brown color.

The red is not as vibrant as it used to be when I colored my hair, I think as a result of years of dying it.

I want to use Clairol Hydrience 34 Tropic on my hair as that's the best purply red I've found so far. But my hair is way to dark for the end result I want. The color always ends up being a very dark brown and it only shows a tinge of red for the first week when light catches it. Not what I want! I want a pretty bold red-violet color that is obvious.

I am considering pre-bleaching my hair so that I can get my desired color result.

What pre-bleaching kit would you recommend before I use Hydrience 34 Tropic on the hair again? I am considering either going to the salon for a pre-bleach or using a pre-bleaching kit that I can get from the drug store or Sally Beauty Supply.

I've NEVER pre-bleached my hair, and I don't know if this is recommend for doing with a store bought color. I know it can be done for FX colors like Manic Panic, but I'm not sure what color result I'd get with a store bough pre-bleach and a store bought color.

Also, is there anything I should watch for when using The 34 Tropic over pre-bleached hair? Will it turn a funny color or will it be OK. I have read up on the net about pre-bleaching and many people say that the biggest mistake is to panic in the 'orange' phase. So I am not sure how long to leave it on. I have fine hair (like baby hair fine) already and don't want it to fall out. So maybe it would be best to go to the salon for the bleaching part?

Any ideas?

Thanks! glittergirl2008-02-04 00:50:38

From my experience you'll be very hard-pressed finding a stylist that will bleach your entire head of dyed dark hair. This is because it is very risky. I myself have had my hairdresser bleach out (using many trips to the salon and many highlights) a very dark permanent colour that I had been dying for about 2 years. And unfortunatelty, there's still evidence of left over colour in my hair (i'm dark blonde). This shouldn't be a problem for you because you are dying over it. However, lightening your hair past the orange stage will no doubt cause significant damage, and may take up to 5 bleachings, because of the dark artificial pigment in your hair which is a nightmare to lift. All the while your virgin hair at your roots will only need one bleaching. See how it can be tricky?

That being said, it can definitely be done. I would personally go to the hairdresser for the bleaching, but it's your choice. To achieve a lighter colour than you have, there is absolutely know other way but bleach. If your chose to do it at home, try Wellite or Wella Blondor (my favourites) with a 30-40 vol developer. I'm confident the red/purple colour can be achieved at home. Anyway i'm sure you know what you're doing on that point.

Let's us know what you decide to do, and good luck.

You should probably use a color stripper first, like Colorzap (Sallys for about $10). Beyond the Zone makes a bleach kit with everything you need if you're not wanting to get everything seperatly, I've used it on dark extensions with good results. If you bleach, pictures would help a ton, even if you block out your face or whatever, it's hard to say what would be best if we're just trying to imagine the color you know? I'm not sure how much having fine have matters as long as you're careful and whatnot. If you're really that nervous about bleaching, I would go to a salon, but it's definatly do-able yourself.

Hi Ally and Rachel!

Thanks for your advice!

I have a pics of myself here. If you go to the last image, that is exactly what my hair looks like now.

The reason I'm really wondering about the bleaching myself is because I just had some caramel highlights put in at the salon. The stylist just foiled a few pieces of hair and bleached them for I'd say about 20 to 25 mins. It turned out caramel in color, which I think would be fine for the pre-red stage I want to go (i think??!).

Basically I want to lighten a few shades so that I can get that vibrant red/violet I want. Does that make sense? So essentially I don't want to go blond or white, I just want to remove pigment so that when I color with Red, it's really Red instead of this mushy brown it's been going to lately.

Ally- you are right tho. The stylist I spoke with said that if I wanted to go blond again (which I had been considering), that I would have to get it done gradually, because as you say, it's gonna be tough on my hair to go in one swoop.

Now that I'm definitely not going blond, I just wonder what the best route is if I want to take out pigment and then re-pigment red/violet.

I am scared about my fine hair tho, so this is why I wondered about getting the pre-bleach done somewhere. I usually go to the Paul Mitchell school in my town for anything like a cut or streaks. I think it might be the safest way to go for pre-bleach. And worst case, they will just say no I suppose.

Rachel- I notice you do this all the time from the other post I read of yours. What is the difference between a color stripper and a bleach kit? Is one less harsh? This is an area I am totally not familiar with and I could totally use your advice.

The ideal color I'd like to get is this:
http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haircolorii8.jpg

I have no idea what to use to get it to that. When I used to use Clairol Ultress 4RV on my natural hair, it got to be very close to that, but since I've dyed and dyed it different shades of Red, it's just mucky brown now.

Do you know of any FX colors that might get me to that nice Violet Red? If so, I'd love to hear about them.

I've used Manic Panic before, but it just doesn't last that long and my bathroom was a nightmare to clean! LOL

Thanks!
glittergirl2008-02-04 20:52:36

Color stripper is usually a alot less harsh then bleach. And I wouldn't think you'd need to lighten up too much, seeing as it seems like a color that could cover just about anything, all you'd need to do is maybe even out the color, and perrrhaps a protein filler, but I don't know much about them so I dont know if it'd be needed. I'd skip the bleach, strip it, then dye. It's not like you're trying to have like pastel blue hair or anything.

I don't know of any semi perm. colors that are like that, except maybe a mixture of a couple would make some like that, but that'd take experminting and whatnot.

[QUOTE=r4ch3l]Color stripper is usually a alot less harsh then bleach. And I wouldn't think you'd need to lighten up too much, seeing as it seems like a color that could cover just about anything, all you'd need to do is maybe even out the color, and perrrhaps a protein filler, but I don't know much about them so I dont know if it'd be needed. I'd skip the bleach, strip it, then dye. It's not like you're trying to have like pastel blue hair or anything.

I don't know of any semi perm. colors that are like that, except maybe a mixture of a couple would make some like that, but that'd take experminting and whatnot.
[/QUOTE]

OK I'll check out the stripper. It looks like you did it in your first picture on the other thread. Do you have any tips for using it? How long did you leave it on?

Maybe I should just use some FX color to get that violet purple? I wonder what Divine Wine Manic Panic would look like. I guess it would only last a few weeks tho. I really wish I could find something that was more permanent in that color. Seems like all the cool colors like that are only available overseas. I see tons of girls from Deviantart.com with hair in that color but it's Schwarzkopf color and you can't get that in the states. When I looked on eBay I had no luck for the color I wanted.

Anyhoooo.. I'll have to experiment. But if anyone knows where to get wikked Red/Violet, I'm all ears. I think I might try stripping the hair very soon.

Thanks for the tips!

The biggest problem with pre-bleaching (or even color removing) that I've encountered is that you HAVE to be sure to pick a color a few shades LIGHTER then what you want the end result to be.

Jules-

That freaks me out a bit! LOL

I really want violet red. Now I'm not sure what to do to get there from where I am at. I have med brown with some caramel highlights.

Hmmmmmmm

So the worst that can happen is that my hair goes really dark?

Rachel... has that happened to you when you've stripped and used an FX color? Maybe I should just go for an FX color instead of semi-permanent?

If it's only a few shades you want to lighten, the stripper will do fine. It will take out a bit of the dark dye so you can dye over with a lighter color.

Hey Ally!

Yeah, I just want to take it a few shades lighter so that the red is more vibrant when I do it again.

I hope it works! LOL

What makes me think it might work is because in December I had some caramel streaks done and the stylist just put bleach on my hair for about 20-25 minutes and it was OK. So I assume the stripper would not be as harsh.

I guess only trying it will tell the tale.

Stripper can be harsh, just do a treatment after if your worried. There's no way around it to achieve what you're after. Let us know how it goes and post pics!

I think it will turn out fine,I would just go with a slightly lighter color to be sure it's not too dark.

Just do a strand test first.That way if the color looks too dark you dont have to proceed all over your head.

In my exprience stripper isnt as harsh as bleach.But then I have only used Metalex which is meant to remove semi's and it's oil based.

julesyjul882008-02-05 19:58:56

Julesjul88 is the brown you have now a semi/demi or permanent?

I used permanent the first time,then started using demi's (clairol Natural Instincts) because I read on here they deposit color better.(my color kept fading)

julesyjul882008-02-06 04:40:14

Ok ladies... this is what I have done... I went to Sally's and talked to a lady there who said that the Colorfix would only take me back to the shade I was before, which is God only knows what color!

So I am going to bleach. I will do a strand test first tho.

These are my supplies:
1 Pk.: Clairol Professional Kaleidocolors Tonal Powder Lightener
-lightens up to 5 levels and adds cool tones for black to medium blonde hair

1 Bottle: Clairol Professional Pure White 20
-Standard lift 20 volume creme developer
-has added conditioners

1 Botttle: Clairol Professional Jazzing in Black Cherry
-I know i had said I wanted permanent color, but they had nothing close to what I wanted and they did not have my desired shade of Manic Panic, so I am going to try this and see how it does

1 Jar: Queen Helene Professional formula Cholesterol (per Rachel's suggestion in the other thread).
-I'll use this after I color and perhaps leave it in for a few hours to give a good condition.

Also I purchased the Sally Knockoffs for Paul Mitchell's Shampoo One (for fine, fragile or chemically treated hair) & Tea Tree Oil Conditioner

Never used the knockoffs for salon shampoo/conditioner and thought it would be worth a shot. Anyone used them?

I am planning to do a strand test ASAP and will probably bleach and color over the weekend. I hope to get pics to show you how it goes thru the stages.

Wish me luck!

glittergirl2008-02-06 18:39:00

LOL doing a strand test is harder than I thought it would be.

I'm sitting here and the bleach is not even working.

I sectioned out a small part of my back hair and applied 1/8 teaspoon of powder mixed in w/ 2 - 1/8 teaspoons of developer.

I have the hair in a hair clip, but I don't have a blinking hair cap. So I blow dried it to heat activate, but I don't see any change in color at all and it's been nearly 15 mins.

How can I effectively do a strand test?

When I do this for real, should I sit under one of those home dryers? How much heat does the bleach need to activate?

Thanks!

EDIT:

OK, i left it on for about 40 minutes, after I got a cap and I used my blowdryer on alternating high and low. I got to a burnt orangey color. I should probably have left it on longer, but my hand was hurting from holding the blowdryer up so long. I am going to borrow my girlfriends salon style drier to do the real job. So I'm thinking i should probably leave the bleach on for about an hour to get it to yellowy color, I'll just have to keep checking it every 20 mins. I'll do my roots in the last 20 mins as they are virgin hair and about a half inch of growth.


One thing I noticed, it's a bit deceiving evaluating the color before it's washed. To me the hair looked more caramel at 40 mins, and when I washed it and dried it, I saw the orange.

I wonder why my hair lifted so much faster when I went to the salon. I don't think I had the bleach on for more than 25 mins there. But maybe it just felt shorter! I'm thinking she must have used a 30 or 40 developer? Doesn't it work faster the higher the level of developer?

Also I think I'm going to grab another 1oz packet of bleach powder and do up a total of 4oz bleach. I can't imagine that the 2oz will be enough for my whole head.
glittergirl2008-02-06 22:37:14

Leave it in for 50 mins, see how it goes. If it still doesn't lift you might need the 30 vol. Artificial pigment is very hard to lift, probably explaining the orange. From experience with my own hair, it takes a few bleachings to lift past the orange stage, because the orange is the stubbon left overs of the dye. I still have bits of orange in my hair because of this. Extremely frustrating.

From the pictures you posted of the colour you wanted, it looks like the burnt orange stage would be light enough to achieve that red/violet colour if you put the dye over the top.

Hey Ally!

I went back to Sally's today and bought 30VOL. I talked to the salesgirl and she told me that it would lift a bit faster, so that's good. She also told me that if I find the bleach drying out, I can re-apply it to keep it moist. I'm going to do it under a cap and borrow my friends proper over the head hairdryer to do the actual job.

Yeah, orange sucks, but I'm going to cover it right up. I can imagine if I ever want to go proper blond again it will have to be a process of streaking until it's at the place I want it.

I will let you all know how I make out. I'm getting my boyfriend to take pics of each stage so I can show you how it goes.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Good luck glittergirl! Can't wait to see your after pics. The color you chose is so pretty.

To all awaiting pics... I posted them in a new thread.

Quite an interesting little evening I had here....

http://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=59125&PID=465735#465735

http://creativestudio.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind.cfg&host_id=42&page_id=788&query=LIGHTENERS&hiword=LIGHTENERS%20
this is from the archive, the one below is most recent
HI, there is a search button on the Clairol professional sight. Type in Lighteners & You will get the list & what the uses are... I hope you Don't put off the scalp bleach on your scalp!

http://www.thecreativestudio.com/main.jsp?nav=dispensary/lighteners


Killerstrands website has details on how on a doll head and She used wellite. Many recommend "oil" as it is more gentle lightener. I have read that Clairol borne blonde, 7th stage, complements & wellite are all good.


Maybe you didn't use the proper "bleach" or decolorizer to get the correct porosity & then "Jazzing".  Regenal is a good ph balancer to remove all the bleach when you are done with that & balance your ph.
The lady at killerstrands.com would probably tell you exactly how to accomplish your task.
borne.blonde2008-02-10 07:57:22

hi...yes you can get schartzkoph here in the U.S.....how do i know?  i have a bunch of it.....it is at pro stores....i used the bonacure in schwartzkoph and also was looking at their colors....the name of the store here in wichita ks is calles Peels.  hope you can find some of this.....i have a friend who had her licence and we went into the store....i could live in there.

oh ya, you can get the schwartzkoph hair products at hair schools where they sell all kinds of pro stuff......no, you can't get the color there unless they use it to color your hair....don't know if they do or not but all the products i have tried from this line have really delivered.  wonder why ebay doesn't have any for sale?

Thank you for all that helpful info born.blonde.

I am pretty much not going to touch my hair now. I did it with the Clairol Pro bleach and thought I did everything right, but everything went wrong. I mean, my hair didn't fall out. But I definitely did not get the desired color result after re-coloring.

I'm sure I must have done something wrong. Someone suggested in my other thread that the orange tone in my hair canceled out the pigment in the Jazzing color. That could be what happened.

At any rate, I'll get someone much more skilled than myself to fix it up. I have to let it rest for a while tho!

Take care!